Northern Rock bailed out by Bank of England

Still wating for my funds to be transferred from NR. I carried out electronic transfer on the 14th.Sept. It did n't go through. Carried out another electronic transfer on Friday 21st. Was assured by phone call funds would be in my account at latest yesterday Wed 26th. Rang again yesterday was told it could take up to next Tue. BOI account overdrawn can't get access to Nr funds. Wondering has anybody experienced similiar delays in depositing money with NR.
At least Bertie did nt have this stress with Sterling/Dollars in a suitcase. Should internet banking be destined to the same destination as electronic voting? What has become to the word SERVICE ?
 
Phew, some progress at last. I opted to close account by internet on Thursday of last week, after cut-off time. Account is closed today, tax and interested calculated and money on the way to my bank account. So touch wood, it should get there in the next few days.

Is there any more news on the bank's situation? Are there still people queuing or has it slowed down by now? I haven't seen anything much in internet news since.

I noted there was an option to re-invest the money with Northern Rock...I have to say I personally would be slow to do this...this has put the frighteners on me. How do other people think now?

The situation seems to be settling down. I went in on Tues last and had a cheque within 20 minutes. There was no one there when I arrived at 11AM but 4 people had arrived before I left.

I deliberated long and hard before deciding to withdraw. My investment decisions are invariably bad anyway so I try not to rush them! If there is a chance of losing money (think Eircom, PMPS, Equitable Life, buying just before the market crashes) I'm usually first in line. Fundamentally I don't see how NR can maintain their rates either because they will be forced to change their business model to a more conservative one or because whoever takes them over won't pay such good rates. Accordingly I'm diversifying into Anglo-Irish, Rabo etc, avoiding Bonds if possible because of the lock-down period, knowing that I'm not debarred from switching back into NR or whoever acquires them if I'm proved wrong about the rates.
 
Still wating for my funds to be transferred from NR. I carried out electronic transfer on the 14th.Sept. It did n't go through. Carried out another electronic transfer on Friday 21st. Was assured by phone call funds would be in my account at latest yesterday Wed 26th. Rang again yesterday was told it could take up to next Tue.


Made 4 electronic xfers from 4 A/Cs over w/end of 15th/16th.
Two have arrived, one left yesterday, (in cyberspace at moment!) and, the final one left account today.

Nansus
 
Interesting article on NR here

Northern Rock borrowed another £5bn from the Bank of England, it emerged on Thursday, bringing its indebtedness to the central bank close to £8bn since it was given access to emergency funds nearly two weeks ago.
The extent of Northern Rock’s financing crisis – it has now borrowed the equivalent of a third of its retail deposits at the end of June – is raising fresh concerns about its viability.
Ordinarily I'd say that kind of burn rate on cash, coupled with the sheer desperation of witholding the dividend (to save a mere £60M), resembles the actions of a company tottering on the edge of bankruptcy. But then, the Bank of England says they're solvent and the only potential issue is those panicking idiots demanding to withdraw their life savings. And their deposits are safe, right?
 
Has anyone had their money sent twice!!
I transferred an amount and it reached my account within 3 working days. The day after my first transfer I decided to close the account fully. Then 2 days after the initial lodgement I received the same amount again. Im talking about a substantial amount here.

Also what I find v strange is the account is still open with a small balance in it. The two pending transactions are the ones I asked for and there is no reference to the Duplication.

I rang them Thursday week and the man was not a bit fazed. He said someone would get back to me within 2 days, thats 7
DAYS AGO. Isnt it strange that they dont want their money back?
 
Hi guys, emnc,
Yes they do want their money bank, same thing happened to me - paid twice - had a call yesterday from UK No., guy asked if I'd kindly return the second payment, again a substantial amount.
I cleared out my account on the Friday the panic occurred - closed by electronic transfer, not same day - the money went through on the Monday to Ulster bank - and two days later the same thing happened.
I switched it to a reward reserve with Ulster - 4.5% car, I think.
 
For info, the on-line request that I made for a "same day" transfer on 15/9 finally came through today, 28/9. Many phone calls and much exasperation later.
 
Did an electronic transfer on Sep 16th. No sign of transfer by Monday so called and spoke to them. To be fair, the lady was very courteous and advised I would have my money by today. It arrived this morning.
I would advise calling direct too.
 
If you have large deposit you are probably safer with northern rock than with irish banks. With northern rock your deposits are 100% guaranteed by the british government, with the irish banks only the first 21,000 is 90% guaranteed, its a wonder the irish government has not also moved to change this situation. The sunday business post is about to publish an article on the safest places to deposit your money
 
I had occasion to phone both the Dublin and Leeds office on a number of occasions during the last few weeks as I needed some of my funds for a planned purchase.
I must say, that in spite of the pressure they were obviously under, not to mind the possibility of becoming unemployed, the NR staff were very courteous on each occasion.

I for one will return when my finances allow.

Nansus
 
So NR are actually using the funding facility provided by the Bank of England. I fail to see why people are treating this as some earth-shattering new development. Most reports mention £2bn as the amount taken out of the bank during the run. It is likely to be higher than that as the £2bn figure was first mentioned while the run was still in progress. The first £3bn may well have been just to cover payouts to depositors. We know the bank needed to access the funding before the run on deposits began otherwise why would they have gone to the Bank of England in the first place? So now they're using it as originally intended. Given their £113bn loan book, the amounts in question are hardly that surprising.

Were we really expecting that after going through the agony of approaching the Bank of England for support they would then in fact not need to draw on the funding facility? That would be a strange turn of events indeed.

Also, we don't know for certain the figures involved. While not an unreasonable conclusion, Simon Ward of fund management group New Star who provided the figures himself concedes it's pure speculation:

"It is possible that other undisclosed activities have contributed to the increase, but the latest figures will fuel speculation that the bank has been forced to extend massive support to the troubled mortgage lender,"

Incidentally, I just spotted a [broken link removed] this evening that one New Star fund made substantial profits from shorting NR just before its share price plummeted.

Ordinarily I'd say that kind of burn rate on cash, coupled with the sheer desperation of witholding the dividend (to save a mere £60M), resembles the actions of a company tottering on the edge of bankruptcy. But then, the Bank of England says they're solvent and the only potential issue is those panicking idiots demanding to withdraw their life savings. And their deposits are safe, right?

Now, this is funny: "sheer desperation of withholding the dividend (to save a mere £60M)". Are you seriously suggesting they withheld the dividend for purely financial reasons? They postponed payment of the dividend because they came under enormous political pressure to do so. The UK government did not want shareholders to be seen to benefit while NR was receiving special deposit guarantees underwritten by the UK taxpayer. If they had paid the dividend you'd probably be saying it was a disgrace that this was happening. They can't win.

And for anyone tired of reading only negative stories about Northern Rock. Here's an article from the Telegraph which highlights many of the bank's strengths that have gone unnoticed by most during this crisis.
 
If you have large deposit you are probably safer with northern rock than with irish banks. With northern rock your deposits are 100% guaranteed by the british government, with the irish banks only the first 21,000 is 90% guaranteed, its a wonder the irish government has not also moved to change this situation.

Maybe the Irish government don't feel it is prudent to waste taxpayer money bailing out failed businesses? Admittedly they've never shown much concern in the past but you never know.

So NR are actually using the funding facility provided by the Bank of England. I fail to see why people are treating this as some earth-shattering new development. Most reports mention £2bn as the amount taken out of the bank during the run. It is likely to be higher than that as the £2bn figure was first mentioned while the run was still in progress. The first £3bn may well have been just to cover payouts to depositors. We know the bank needed to access the funding before the run on deposits began otherwise why would they have gone to the Bank of England in the first place? So now they're using it as originally intended. Given their £113bn loan book, the amounts in question are hardly that surprising.

Were we really expecting that after going through the agony of approaching the Bank of England for support they would then in fact not need to draw on the funding facility? That would be a strange turn of events indeed.

Firstly, NR certainly made a virtue of telling all and sundry that they were only putting emergency funding in place and made repeated statements that they hadn't needed to draw it down. Now it appears they may have drawn down the entire lot in a matter of weeks. What now? Ask for a second emergency fund to be provided?

Secondly, the emergency loan is made at a penal rate of 6.75%. Money market rates are less than 6.5%, so you would only tap this fund if literally no-one else will lend to your business. So despite the government guarantees on deposits and Mervyn King's insistence that the books are fine, professionals in the corporate lending business continue to treat NR like it is about to go under. What does this tell the ordinary man on the street?

Also, we don't know for certain the figures involved. While not an unreasonable conclusion, Simon Ward of fund management group New Star who provided the figures himself concedes it's pure speculation:

"It is possible that other undisclosed activities have contributed to the increase, but the latest figures will fuel speculation that the bank has been forced to extend massive support to the troubled mortgage lender,"

Incidentally, I just spotted a [broken link removed] this evening that one New Star fund made substantial profits from shorting NR just before its share price plummeted.

They exited the short position before the rumours that NR had drawn down on its emergency funding.

Now, this is funny: "sheer desperation of withholding the dividend (to save a mere £60M)". Are you seriously suggesting they withheld the dividend for purely financial reasons? They postponed payment of the dividend because they came under enormous political pressure to do so. The UK government did not want shareholders to be seen to benefit while NR was receiving special deposit guarantees underwritten by the UK taxpayer. If they had paid the dividend you'd probably be saying it was a disgrace that this was happening. They can't win.

If my comment is funny yours is hilarious. The UK government "did not want shareholders to be seen to benefit". NR shareholders have taken an 85% haircut on their investment year-to-date. At best they would have had their misery slightly reduced. I couldn't imagine too many riots over a 14p per share dividend payout to the beleagured shareholders but perhaps you are right, who knows?

And for anyone tired of reading only negative stories about Northern Rock. Here's an article from the Telegraph which highlights many of the bank's strengths that have gone unnoticed by most during this crisis.

Doesn't seem a particularly optimistic article but eye of the beholder and all that. If people feel there is value in NR and the company is going to somehow weather this storm, then they should be taking an equity stake in the company where at least they may be compensated for their risk. What's the logic in loaning money to NR at 4.75% when they'll gladly pay the Bank of England 6.75% for the same privilege?
 
Firstly, NR certainly made a virtue of telling all and sundry that they were only putting emergency funding in place and made repeated statements that they hadn't needed to draw it down. Now it appears they may have drawn down the entire lot in a matter of weeks. What now? Ask for a second emergency fund to be provided?

They were trying to shore up confidence in the bank to stop the run on deposits. The run itself subsequently forced them to draw on the funding earlier than expected.

Secondly, the emergency loan is made at a penal rate of 6.75%. Money market rates are less than 6.5%, so you would only tap this fund if literally no-one else will lend to your business. So despite the government guarantees on deposits and Mervyn King's insistence that the books are fine, professionals in the corporate lending business continue to treat NR like it is about to go under. What does this tell the ordinary man on the street?

If NR was finding it difficult to secure funding before the announcement from the Bank of England then it shouldn't really be that surprising that things have not got easier in the immediate aftermath of the announcement. The corporate lending professionals are a fairly cutthroat bunch. NR is clearly in some difficulty, lending to them in the present environment would amount to doing them a favour or throwing them a lifeline. It may very well suit many interested parties to leave them hanging because they're seeking to benefit from NR's difficulties in some way. Even if they consider the chances of NR going under small, they may see little reason to lend to them at the moment for other reasons.

The ordinary man in the street might very well adopt the same attitude as he is not receiving an immediate reward or obvious bonus for standing by the bank. From an Irish depositor's perspective however there is a lot to lose by the disappearance of NR. I have held accounts with them since shortly after they arrived here, first by post and then online and remember quite well the situation with Irish banks' deposit offerings before that. With the current rates on offer, deposits can even be a viable investment option for some people (if for example they're not making mortgage repayments as then their actual inflation is considerably lower than the reported rate). If there is a significant deterioration in the rates offered going forward due to NR's departure, then deposits will start to look very unattractive indeed. Of course, one individual's decision to keep money invested with the bank will not change anything in itself but the above should at least provide some insight into their motivation for doing so.

They exited the short position before the rumours that NR had drawn down on its emergency funding.

Yes, I'm aware of that and the article states that clearly but it is perhaps helpful to know the source of the figures and that they are not entirely disinterested observers of events.

If my comment is funny yours is hilarious. The UK government "did not want shareholders to be seen to benefit". NR shareholders have taken an 85% haircut on their investment year-to-date. At best they would have had their misery slightly reduced. I couldn't imagine too many riots over a 14p per share dividend payout to the beleagured shareholders but perhaps you are right, who knows?

This issue was widely reported throughout the media before the decision to defer the dividend. MPs had become particularly vexed about it.

from the Times:

MPs on the Treasury Select Committee had attacked the decision to pay out cash to shareholders while taxpayers’ money was being used to provide emergency liquidity to the bank.

from the BBC:

First news that the payments would be withheld came from the BBC's Business Editor Robert Peston.

He said that the bank had come under intense pressure from the Financial Services Authority (FSA)
and the Treasury not to make the £59m payment.

"The Treasury was deeply unhappy about Northern Rock paying a dividend at a time when the government
has been forced to underwrite all deposits and loans to Northern Rock," Mr Peston said.


Doesn't seem a particularly optimistic article but eye of the beholder and all that.

I never claimed it was an exclusively positive story, only that it highlighted the bank's strengths:

If you can provide the funding, Northern Rock is a good business. The bank has none of that toxic sub-prime debt. Default rates are 0.47pc, roughly half the industry average, and the average loan-to-value ratio is a conservative 59pc.

Its sales and servicing operation is the envy of the industry, as is its cost control. At 26.6pc, the bank's cost-to-income ratio is well below the 40pc average giving it a competitive advantage. Sort the funding out, bankers concede, and a bidder would be buying the best mortgage salesforce in the country. Not to mention the fifth largest lender.


If people feel there is value in NR and the company is going to somehow weather this storm, then they should be taking an equity stake in the company where at least they may be compensated for their risk. What's the logic in loaning money to NR at 4.75% when they'll gladly pay the Bank of England 6.75% for the same privilege?

I don't see how it follows that one should take an equity stake in the company. Many reports state that shareholders could be wiped out as the price of securing a takeover. You're looking at a possible total loss of capital there. By contrast the Treasury and the Bank of England are not going to want depositors to suffer after committing to a unique guarantee arrangement. In fact, it is likely they will not want to invoke the scheme at all and will not let it get that far. They will want to resolve things in as orderly and tidy a manner as possible after all the negative effects the affair has had on the UK banking sector generally. Ultimately, the Treasury and the Bank of England are in the driving seat now. It's in their gift to let Northern Rock survive if they so wish by altering the penalty rate and the duration of the loans. They may yet have to do this if they cannot arrive at an acceptable take-over arrangement. My view is that having agreed to support the bank and guarantee deposits they are now left holding the baby as it were. It's the politics not the economics that's most important in this story now.

Lastly, Philip Richards of RAB Capital, now the largest single shareholder in the company has some interesting thoughts on Northern Rock in [broken link removed] to the FT.

He makes the point that it is difficult to see why the bank should be left to die when there is no evidence of poor lending practices or dodgy loans and is otherwise a well-run company.
 
All my savings (bar small amount) were transferred to my AIB on-line current account on Friday 28th. Then found I couldn't transfer more than €5,000 in any one day and excluding Sunday. That was an annoying surprise. So sent a cheque to Rabo which should arrive Monday and will start paying interest immediately and before cheque is cleared. Think I might chance First Active in the interim as I got the forms ages ago.

Interesting article in todays Indo


The number of "millionaire" Irish shareholders in AIB has nearly halved in less than three months. Probably the same with BOI.

Now I'll betray my ignorance (once again!) of the banking system. It's easy to understand why N.R. can't grow their mortgage business at the moment but, if the existing mortgagees don't default, they still have a sound loan book? Or is the problem due to the length of time it will take for the loans to be repaid? Is it simply the case the amount coming in is far short of what N.R. owes to other Banks? And if N.R. had continued to lend money not balanced by savings, wasn't it inevitable their banking methodology would crank to a halt? Given the warnings emanating from the US, surely they couldn't have thought rates would come down! Sounds like a merry-go-round that couldn't be stopped.
 
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