Nonsense reports about poverty

Poverty across the EU is measured in several ways. The first way is AROP, which you could argue is more a measure of low incomes.


At risk of poverty rate​

This is the share of persons with an equivalised income below a given percentage (usually 60%) of the national median income. It is also calculated at 40%, 50% and 70% for comparison. The rate is calculated by ranking persons by equivalised income from smallest to largest and then extracting the median or middle value. Anyone with an equivalised income of less than 60% of the median is considered at risk of poverty at a 60% level.



National median disposable income, SILC 2023, refers to calendar year 2022

At household level = 55,149

Equivalised per person = 27,597
(there are various ways to equivalise the household data, and that can make a difference)

We get 60% of the median, to determine the AROP threshold

AROP threshold = 0.60*27,597 = 16,558 thresholf for one adult

That is an AROP threshold of 317 per week.

For two adults and two children, the threshold is 38,415, or 736 per week

The SILC then counts how many people have disposable income less than 317 pw.
 
Protocol said:
Poverty across the EU is measured in several ways. The first way is AROP, which you could argue is more a measure of low incomes.


At risk of poverty rate​

This is the share of persons with an equivalised income below a given percentage (usually 60%) of the national median income. It is also calculated at 40%, 50% and 70% for comparison. The rate is calculated by ranking persons by equivalised income from smallest to largest and then extracting the median or middle value. Anyone with an equivalised income of less than 60% of the median is considered at risk of poverty at a 60% level.



National median disposable income, SILC 2023, refers to calendar year 2022

At household level = 55,149

Equivalised per person = 27,597
(there are various ways to equivalise the household data, and that can make a difference)

We get 60% of the median, to determine the AROP threshold

AROP threshold = 0.60*27,597 = 16,558 thresholf for one adult

That is an AROP threshold of 317 per week.

For two adults and two children, the threshold is 38,415, or 736 per week

The SILC then counts how many people have disposable income less than 317 pw.
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The people in the Poverty Industry conflate income distribution with poverty.
That's how communism works; make everyone equally poor and then no one is poor.
 
Protocol said:
Deprivation is defined in the SILC as not being able to afford two of the following:

Deprivation items​

Households that are excluded and marginalised from consuming goods and services which are considered the norm for other people in society, due to an inability to afford them, are considered to be deprived. The identification of the marginalised or deprived is currently achieved on the basis of a set of eleven basic deprivation indicators:

  1. Without heating at some stage in the last year
  2. Unable to afford a morning, afternoon, or evening out in last fortnight
  3. Unable to afford two pairs of properly fitting shoes in good condition that are suitable for daily activities
  4. Unable to afford a roast once a week
  5. Unable to afford a meal with meat, chicken, fish, or vegetarian equivalent every second day
  6. Unable to afford new (not second-hand) clothes
  7. Unable to afford a warm waterproof coat
  8. Unable to afford to keep the home adequately warm
  9. Unable to afford to replace any worn out furniture
  10. Unable to afford to have family or friends for a drink or a meal once a month
  11. Unable to afford to buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
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Using those criteria I consider it socially and ethically desirable for people who rely on the State for all or the majority of their income to be deprived.
 
Protocol said:
Deprivation is defined in the SILC as not being able to afford two of the following:

Deprivation items​

Households that are excluded and marginalised from consuming goods and services which are considered the norm for other people in society, due to an inability to afford them, are considered to be deprived. The identification of the marginalised or deprived is currently achieved on the basis of a set of eleven basic deprivation indicators:

  1. Without heating at some stage in the last year
  2. Unable to afford a morning, afternoon, or evening out in last fortnight
  3. Unable to afford two pairs of properly fitting shoes in good condition that are suitable for daily activities
  4. Unable to afford a roast once a week
  5. Unable to afford a meal with meat, chicken, fish, or vegetarian equivalent every second day
  6. Unable to afford new (not second-hand) clothes
  7. Unable to afford a warm waterproof coat
  8. Unable to afford to keep the home adequately warm
  9. Unable to afford to replace any worn out furniture
  10. Unable to afford to have family or friends for a drink or a meal once a month
  11. Unable to afford to buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
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I know you are just the messenger here Protocol so this isn't aimed at you but lists such as these are just more nonsense.

  1. Without heating at some stage in the last year
    1. We turn off the heating for the summer months. Are we deprived?
  2. Unable to afford a morning, afternoon, or evening out in last fortnight
    1. Seriously? This is a level of deprivation? How privileged have we become that being unable to afford a meal out every fortnight is now considered being deprived! Hello 1st world.
  3. Unable to afford two pairs of properly fitting shoes in good condition that are suitable for daily activities
    1. I wear the leather out of my shoes before replacing them and even a small leak just means they're for around the house only. How long should the two pairs last me - should I be able to replace them every year or else I'm considered deprived?
  4. Unable to afford a roast once a week
    1. Roast what? Chicken for €6 which would feed a family of 5 or Eye of Beef for €30?
  5. Unable to afford a meal with meat, chicken, fish, or vegetarian equivalent every second day
  6. Unable to afford new (not second-hand) clothes
    1. Again how often? Should I be expected to make clothes last or should I expect to replace them after a few months?
  7. Unable to afford a warm waterproof coat
    1. From Penneys or from Brown Thomas? Who decides what is suitably warm.
  8. Unable to afford to keep the home adequately warm
    1. Again who decides what is adequate. I know people who have their house temperature set to 23 degrees. Personally I would melt in that heat. Is one warm room and a hot water bottle on a cold night adequate?
  9. Unable to afford to replace any worn out furniture
    1. Define worn out. Some people might like to refresh couches every few years, others might be happy to never replace it. You're hardly deprived if you are sitting on the same wooden kitchen chairs all your life.
  10. Unable to afford to have family or friends for a drink or a meal once a month
    1. See 2 above.
  11. Unable to afford to buy presents for family or friends at least once a year
    1. Why would being unable to affort presents for friends be a sign of deprivation?
 
No. 1 - it's not being able to afford heating that is the criteria.

The main idea here is to consider features of life that are deemed ordinary / normal.

So the committee of people who choose these 11 deprivation indicators consider doing or having them a normal part of life.


Buying gifts = normal part of life.

Therefore, not being able to afford to buy gifts = deprived.
 
Here is the deprivation measure at Eurostat level:

Severe material and social deprivation​

Material and social deprivation refers to the inability to afford a set of specific goods, services, or social activities that are considered by most people essential for an adequate quality of life. Individuals unable to afford five or more of the thirteen standard items experience material deprivation; those unable to afford seven or more are in severe deprivation (see the data sources section for a complete list of the thirteen items). This concept complements the relative analysis of monetary poverty by providing information on absolute poverty.


Can't afford five or more from the list of 13 = deprived.

Can't afford seven or more from the list of 13 = severely deprived.

Context​

Material and social deprivation indicators provide a measure related to the (in)ability of individuals to be able to afford a set of thirteen predefined material items that are considered by most people to be desirable or even necessary to experience an adequate quality of life. The list of thirteen items includes the following (seven related to the household and six related to the individual):

At household level:
  • Capacity to face unexpected expenses
  • Capacity to afford paying for one week annual holiday away from home
  • Capacity to being confronted with payment arrears (on mortgage or rental payments, utility bills, hire purchase instalments or other loan payments)
  • Capacity to afford a meal with meat, chicken, fish or vegetarian equivalent every second day
  • Ability to keep home adequately
  • Have access to a car/van for personal use
  • Replacing worn-out furniture
At individual level:
  • Having internet connection
  • Replacing worn-out clothes by some new ones
  • Having two pairs of properly fitting shoes (including a pair of all-weather shoes)
  • Spending a small amount of money each week on him/herself
  • Having regular leisure activities
  • Getting together with friends/family for a drink/meal at least once a month
The material and social deprivation rate is defined as the proportion of the population that is unable to afford five or more out of this list of thirteen items.

The severe material and social deprivation rate is defined as the proportion of the population that is unable to afford seven or more of the above-mentioned items.
 
The problem with drawing conclusions from SILC reports is that no-one can stand over the accuracy of questionnaire responses, i.e., the raw data being analyzed.
 
So even if we take that data as accurate (though it isn't) the level of real deprivation here is around 5% and the root cause of that is not economic.
 
Protocol said:
No. 1 - it's not being able to afford heating that is the criteria.

The main idea here is to consider features of life that are deemed ordinary / normal.

So the committee of people who choose these 11 deprivation indicators consider doing or having them a normal part of life.


Buying gifts = normal part of life.

Therefore, not being able to afford to buy gifts = deprived.
Click to expand...
What constitutes "Heating"?

My children will want to turn on the heating in September while wearing summer clothes in the house. They are told to dress appropriately and if they are still cold we'll talk about it again.

What is the minimum monetary value of the gifts that people should be able to afford? How many gifts of that value should they be able to afford?

Why does anyone think it's a good idea that welfare levels should be high enough that those who rely on it should be able to afford a weeks holidays? There are plenty of people paying a mortgage who can't afford a holiday. Are those families in deprivation?
 
Replacing worn out furniture is a ridiculous benchmark. I cannot recall the last time I was confronted with such a dilemma in our own house.

We have the same furniture for the last 16 years.Even the same telly bought in 2008 (Sony Flatscreen).

2 years ago the sofas needed replacing in one of the rentals. I bought a really decent barely used stylish leather 3 & 2 seater on adverts for €60 the pair.

Reckon if I were to look to buy similar as new I'd have to pay close to 2k but because I'm reasonably sensible and spending my own money, I looked at second hand and found a bargain. The likes of adverts are littered with people selling furniture for bargain prices just to get them gone.
 
Measuring non-monetary deprivation, by its very nature I suppose, means making subjective decisions.

Does anybody have any suggestion of how to measure non-monetary deprivation?
 
I suppose deprivation is relative. If that's the Irish version of deprived, it shows how high the general standard of living is. From looking at this, deprivation and poverty are not the same. The authors may want us to think that
 
The CSO uses three measures:

(1) AROP - this is simply do you have a low disp income, below the threshold?

(2) deprivation = non-monetary indicators, this is the list of 11 items

(3) consistent poverty = AROP and deprived

The Govt like to use (3), as that reports the lowest amount of people in poverty.

See data below:


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Purple said:
The people in the Poverty Industry conflate income distribution with poverty.
That's how communism works; make everyone equally poor and then no one is poor.
Click to expand...
This is a key point. If Elon Musk decided to treble everybody in Ireland's income, it would do nada for the poverty rate. This is not a measure of poverty but a measure of inequality of income distribution like GINI.
 
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