New Revenue flag ??????

Given that the State and 'official Ireland' including schools etc for a long time criminalized and stigmatised people of that persuasion, I think a Pride march where the State facilitates and endorses the march, sends a clear signal that whatever bigots might still be out there, the old days are gone.

And there are authoritarian if not fascist bigots out there cancelling Pride parades, it would send a very bad signal if Ireland joined in.

And it seems to be a fun, festive, party occasions, I expect lots of money being spent in local bars, food joints.
 
Purple said:
That's not what it's for. I don't think black people should change their behaviour or that immigrants should alter their culture in order to placate racists. In the same way I don't think that LGBT+ people should have to placate bigots. If I've a problem with gay people then that's by problem to deal with, not theirs.
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It should be possible to comment on the effectiveness of the pride movement without having terms like bigot bandied about in response.
 
odyssey06 said:
Given that the State and 'official Ireland' including schools etc for a long time criminalized and stigmatised people of that persuasion, I think a Pride march where the State facilitates and endorses the march, sends a clear signal that whatever bigots might still be out there, the old days are gone.
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Fair enough. But there is a bunch of other societal issues that require more urgent state endorsement that never seem to get a look in.

At this stage, the pride movement is an easy risk-free one to endorse, both for government and corporate Ireland.

Why not, for example, have a march in support for the rights of disabled people? Or would that require government to actually evaluate and highlight their own shortcomings?
 
Salvadore said:
It should be possible to comment on the effectiveness of the pride movement without having terms like bigot bandied about in response.
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I'm not bandying the phrase about. I'm making a specific point. I'm not saying that people who don't think that the pride march is effective are bigots. I was quite clear about that. I was saying that LGBT people shouldn't have to alter their behaviour in order to placate bigots.

I've never been to a Pride march and I'v no intention of ever doing so. I'm not the target audience and I've better ways of spending my afternoon. I've no desire to see overt displays of sexuality, especially from people that I don't find physically attractive. It's also not something that I wish to participate in. That doesn't make me a bigot. It makes me not interested in it. It makes me not the target audience. They shouldn't have to change the nature of their parade in order to make me interested. That's all.
 
Salvadore said:
Or would that require government to actually evaluate and highlight their own shortcomings?
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Joking aside the State spend a very large amount of money facilitating and helping disabled people. And the State never criminalised being disabled (unless you count addiction as a disability but that's a different discussion).
 
Salvadore said:
have a march in support for the rights of disabled people? Or would that require government to actually evaluate and highlight their own shortcomings?
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December 3rd is International Day of Persons with Disabilities. It is marked by events in this country, including state endorsed ones.
It's not mutually exclusive.

I don't see a coherent argument against Pride here. On the one hand we have posters saying Pride events are ineffective, or the other hand saying why don't other groups have them.

If it is a 'risk free' event, it is also a party \ festival atmosphere and a money spinner for the city. The fuss about it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny on any level imo.
 
Salvadore said:
That’s not the point. And I think you know that.
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I'm not sure what the point is. How much does the State spend to facilitate Pride marches around the country? Is it more than any other big event like GAA or Rugby match or a concert? How much does the State make in additional taxes from the people attending spending their money in bars and restaurants and cafes? (In my experience the gays do love a nice cafe).
 
odyssey06 said:
On the one hand we have posters saying Pride events are ineffective, or the other hand saying why don't other groups have them.
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The point is that the pride movement has largely achieved its objectives (the cohort that still has a problem will never change). I don’t understand why a full month-long focus is still necessary.
 
Salvadore said:
The point is that the pride movement has largely achieved its objectives (the cohort that still has a problem will never change).
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In general terms I agree with you, though we're far from where we should be which, in my opinion, is the point at which it just doesn't occur to anyone to be bothered about what someone's sexual orientation etc is.
Salvadore said:
I don’t understand why a full month-long focus is still necessary.
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I never understood that.

Edit: that said it doesn't take much to unwind progress. Just look at the limits on free speech in America and the way in which LGBT people have been targeted. I'll happily take Pride Marches over an authoritarian Christian Right.
 
Salvadore said:
I don’t understand why a full month-long focus is still necessary.
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I think the month thing comes from the States and e.g. Black History Month.
Probably convenient for museums and schools to have a month to focus on X.
In practical terms there isn't a sustained focus for a month, the events were mainly focused around last week\weekend.

Given there's only 12 months in the year, I understand the need to 'anchor' things around a date but a month does seem like overkill to me also, outside of museums. And museums et al could still anchor around a particular date.
 
odyssey06 said:
Given there's only 12 months in the year, I understand the need to 'anchor' things around a date but a month does seem like overkill to me also, outside of museums. And museums et al could still anchor around a particular date.
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And Gay Spar in Dublin (the one on George's Street). They could run specials on pink lemonade and what not for the month.

I used to live near it. I crossed the road many a time on the LGBTQ+ coloured pedestrian crossing and have purchased many an item in Gay Spar and I can confirm that gay is not contagious.
 
Salvadore said:
Why not, for example, have a march in support for the rights of disabled people? Or would that require government to actually evaluate and highlight their own shortcomings?
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There is plenty (although perhaps not enough) activity and campaigning for the rights of people with disabilities.

New paper on Personal Assistance Service in Ireland - National Disability Authority

nda.ie nda.ie

And only 3 days ago

www.rte.ie

New EU rules on digital accessibility to come into force

New EU rules come into force tomorrow which will require websites, apps and devices to be accessible for people with disabilities and older people.
www.rte.ie www.rte.ie

I guess but cannot be sure, when people of disability (now estimated to be around 13% of population albeit of vastly varying degrees) have obtained full recognition and rights that perhaps there may be a month long celebration?

However, until then, the fight goes on!
 
JoeRoberts said:
Then why make the point if you know nothing about it ?
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In fairness to @Sister Sara, I raised disability as an issue that might benefit from the same month long level of exposure as the pride movement. I made the point that it wouldn’t be endorsed as wholeheartedly by government because even they wouldn’t have brass neck to suggest that the lot of people with disabilities (however that might be defined) was something to celebrate.
Sister Sara said:
I guess but cannot be sure, when people of disability (now estimated to be around 13% of population albeit of vastly varying degrees) have obtained full recognition and rights that perhaps there may be a month long celebration?
Click to expand...

To continue the analogy, why not do it the other way around and have a month long focus on the issues facing people with disabilities perhaps (and this is crazy talk) culminating in initiatives that actually improve their lives.

Then when we’ve achieved measurable progress, we can have an annual one-day celebration of how we’ve come as a caring society.
 
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