Money to be spent on new defence forces uniforms

[Sister Sara]

And the outcome now is a dependence on external contractors, no doubt at a much higher cost.

Here are the contractors:

 

[Itchy]

It's usually cheaper to outsource work like that at small scale, it's standard across other branches of government that complex maintenance is farmed out to the private sector as it's cheaper than employing the skilled headcount you'd need to provide a comparable service.

This is not the strategy though, it is reactive measure necessary to keep the show on the road. And even if it was the strategy, why would you pick weapons maintenance and explosives engineers as the jobs to civilianise, rather than admin roles?

The fact is there is no pipeline of private sector articifers, trained on OTO Melara naval autocannons. The people doing this will be ex-Naval Service like they have ex-Air Corps aircraft technicians working in Baldonnell. It's moving the deck chairs and a damning indictment of civil service management of the DF. These the issues were identified specifically as critical in the Public Service Pay Commission reports in both 2017 & 2019.

 

[Itchy]

And therein, with respect, lies the opaqueness that Connolly, as an opposition TD is trying to get answers too.

Is Tonra a lobbyist for weapons manufacturing industry or not? What is this Irish Defence and Security Association?

https://defenceandsecurity.ie/

Is the answer to you question not in the link that you posted? How about the minutes of the meetings posted on the Depts website? Harris told Connolly that they are on the website. If Tonra is a lobbyist, then he'll be on the register, what's opaque exactly? Maybe she just didn't do her homework?

That is not to say that their membership involves anything to do with progressing offensive weapons manufacturing and technology on this island for export and profit, but, why can our democratically elected TD's not get the information from Government that they request?

That is literally what their membership want, to develop an indigenous defence industry, its on the website.

Our Mission​

To ensure Ireland develops appropriate, leading edge and trusted defence & security capabilities in the land, sea, air, space & cyber domains, in order to protect our society, create jobs, drive research and enhance Ireland’s economic growth.

The lack of transparency lends itself to suspicion that Irelands military neutrality is continually undermined by sleight of hand boardroom decisions that the public are shielded from.

More dog whistling, "sleight of hand", classic us vs. them. Maybe less of the "opaqueness" yourself, what specifically are you saying? Who is undermining neutrality and how so?

 

[Leo]

why would you pick weapons maintenance and explosives engineers as the jobs to civilianise, rather than admin roles?

Because there's always admin to be done, so having a pool of people on staff who can complete that work often works best. When you have so few big guns, training a number of staff to the high degree of specialisation and accreditation to ensure you have coverage for time off, deployments overseas etc. becomes a waste of money and expertise. Even for the members involved, there's a chance they would not want to invest lots of time and effort in specialisation only to rarely get to use those skills.

If these skills and the qualifications to enable someone maintain these to the manufacturer's specifications were easier and cheaper to attain it's unlikely the current situation would have arisen.

 

[jman0war]

Civilianising military roles doesn't seem like a good idea. All those "civilians" would become valid military targets should the shooting start.

 

[Leo]

Civilianising military roles doesn't seem like a good idea. All those "civilians" would become valid military targets should the shooting start.

How likely is it do you think that Ireland will be invaded? The US with the size of their military budget routinely engage private sector maintenance and support staff in massive numbers. Perhaps we're just behind the times.

 

[Sister Sara]

@Itchy There is no dog-whistling in what I said anymore that @lff12 said about "Saint Catherine" in an otherwise interesting post.

It is only right and proper that our opposition TDs are free to scrutinise government policy
and decisions. You don’t have to agree but you should accept scrutiny.

The 'minutes' of the meetings are here Notes on meetings and it is this I believe Connolly is referring to. They are notes and they appear to only have been made available to a member of parliament on the third time of asking.

So it is reasonable to ask questions about this organistion, IDSA.

Aside from its shiny website homepage and headline banners, there is absolutely noting of any substance on the website
other than the illustrious international field of members that the IDSA has managed to gather on board.

So, a reasonable question for the IDSA is who funds it? How much capital has it got, how did
the recruitment process for members occur?

If DoD is going to engage with this organisation on matters of such strategic and national
importance, without even the Minister of Defence ever meeting anyone, then I do think these are
reasonable questions.

That said, it is good to see that Tonra makes himself available for the Committee questions which amount to an interesting discussion and some fair and reasonable points.

I am all for Ireland upgrading its millitary to enhance our security in co-operation with our neighbours and allies.
I would be fundamentally opposed to developing an industry for the export of military grade weapons and technology.

 

[Itchy]

Because there's always admin to be done, so having a pool of people on staff who can complete that work often works best. When you have so few big guns, training a number of staff to the high degree of specialisation and accreditation to ensure you have coverage for time off, deployments overseas etc.

Perhaps we're just behind the times.

To be fair, civilians maintain the transport fleet alongside military techs, and have done for at least a decade. The Air Corps have always had heavy maintenance completed by the manufacturer/civilian specialists in accordance with the schedules. Civilians maintain the property estate, ranges and barrack services. The organisation is well organised in that regard.

This situation is entirely different. It’s the organisations core competency. There’s no doubt these people are specialists but that’s not to say they don’t add value in other areas for example, they would be qualified to do things such as dispose of defective ammunition, civilians won’t be doing that. Not common, but it happens.

To be clear, I’m not making an argument on quality or capacity to do the work, it’s the erosion of the ethos, loss of corporate knowledge and the general disdain shown when issues are raised in good faith, followed by inaction, leading to the predictable loss of capability which is addressed reactively. The volume of staff leaving for better paid roles in the civil service is testament. Those private sector contractors will be exNavy, some of those aircraft and vehicle techs are ex Defence Forces. A disservice to the State in my opinion and I would be very sceptical of any reputed monetary savings for the taxpayer.

 

[Leo]

To be clear, I’m not making an argument on quality or capacity to do the work, it’s the erosion of the ethos, loss of corporate knowledge and the general disdain shown when issues are raised in good faith, followed by inaction, leading to the predictable loss of capability which is addressed reactively. The volume of staff leaving for better paid roles in the civil service is testament.

Yeah, I get that, but I just wonder is the amount of additional specialist training and manufacturer certification required for this role combined with how little of the work is actually required some of the reasons none of the others seem to want to do it?

The military was never somewhere one chasing a paycheck would have as first choice, but many who would struggle in a university environment or can't get in take that route and later move to the private sector. Our corporate security for example often hires ex-military and in our US locations it's quite common for IT maintenance and security roles to be filled by people who got their training and experience in the military there. That's common in forces world wide, it's not something new here nor something that we are ever likely to stop