Losing our sovereignty - what's the big deal!

onekeano

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I head a lot of people speaking eloquently about what a sad day it was to be losing our sovereignty. I can't understand this when you consider:
- we had a Taoiseach who "won loads of ca$h on the horses"
- we had a minister do time in jail for corruption
- we've had a leader of an ethics committee do porridge also
- current a former Taosieach's son and former TD / councillor & his cohorts faces charges of corruption
- Ivor Callelly - need I say more
- over the last week or so Bill & Ben have been emphatically tellinging us there was no question of a bailout . "it's all fiction" etc
- a small % of the workforce have raped the taxpayer thanks to benchmarking with the teflon Taoiseach
- we have a load of "professions" who have had their snouts in the trough bleeeding this country dry

Sovereignty....... personnally I had plenty of that thanks and am delighted that at last we have a party to lead us with no vested interests / corruption - welcome IMF!

Roy
 
I just think its sad in terms of the affect it has and will have for a very long time...

It was a bit like being at the bedside of someone in ICU, not knowing if they were going to make it or not ,all the signs were that they have little chance of survival, and yet the experts/Doctors keep telling you not to worry they have it all under control , the person will be given medications and it will take time and the medicine doesn't taste too nice,but he will be fine..

Each day /Month and year that goes by, you see the person going downhill, you ask for reassurance and the experts /Doctors put a plaster on the patient ,and reassure you once again not to worry that all will be fine,that nothing can go wrong now that the patient has both a plaster and medication..

A year later, You are in the hospital canteen,there huddled in a corner is a group of consultants talking about the patient and you overhear them saying this is fatal,we need to intervene..you become more concerned and start to make preparations for the inevitable, you speak to the experts/doctors,but yet the expert/doctors insist the consultants are wrong,that you are wrong to be concerned, the person will survive.You are causing a fuss over nothing and they know what's best.Despite the fact that the patient has now lost conciousness..

Then as you attend the hospital one day, you see funeral bearers arrive..you ask why they are there ,is it for the patient you know in ICU, The expert,doctors tell you that they are not here for this reason but just in case you might like to discuss flower arrangements...Now you start to feel very insecure,all the signs are pointing to one thing,and yet you are relying on the experts/doctors as they have all the knowledge and power..you are beginning to feel powerless.

Then as you walk along the hospital corridor the hospital chiefs office door is open and he sees how frustrated and worried you look and decides to tell you what the real situation is, that it is in fact terminal, and now the treatment for the patent will be so severe that the cure may be worse than the illness.

Then today arrives, and as you stand by the graveside watching the coffin being put into the grave by the funeral bearers , the doctors/experts are helping to throw the clay on top of it..

The same doctors/experts sympathise with you and tell you ,we didn't inform you of how grave the situation ,because you are way to stupid to handle the truth,it was for your own good.
They then tell you that YOU shouldn't be ashamed that the patient died.
You then have a decision to make, would you use the same doctors/experts.
You are left with something tangible..its called IMF..its my fault...
 
What if the IMF slash the salaries of TD's and others, what if the IMF get rid of quangos, what if the IMF prosecute the banks and put in place a banking structure that cant be manipulated, what if the IMF take a long hard look at all our public representatives and put in place a structure that no longer relies on the votes of the few.... I know it wont happen but one can dream.

We are paying people astronomical sums for doing what ..... nothing

I could go on and on, we have been in hoc to a select few for generations and now its payback time big time.

I fully agree with the first post as well.

noah

ps geldof had it right when he wrote BANANA REPUBLIC SEPTIC ISLE and that was quite a few years ago
 
Agree with you ..it is about time someone sorted out the mess,its just a shame ( The governments )that we had to jump off the cliff before some action was taken..
 
Are you expecting too much from the IMF??? Note in greece, the IMF have left it up to the government to make the cuts and the have failed to do so! Leaving them in a worse situation now than they were in April/May...
 
Are you expecting too much from the IMF??? Note in greece, the IMF have left it up to the government to make the cuts and the have failed to do so! Leaving them in a worse situation now than they were in April/May...

Eh I don't think they left it up to the Greeks - have you seen the quarter by quarter scorecard that they had to sign up to? and then they IMF only committed to dripfeed money to teh greeks on condition that they met the items listed on the scorecard. This included cuts / taxes but also very specific legislative changes to break down barriers to entry such as the legal / medical and pharmacuetical professions.

Roy
 
Yes. the IMF will probably leave it up to the government to make the cuts. The IMF will just give them the the monetary value of the cuts needed.
The government will then make the cuts and you can be sure that their salaries and perks and those of their friends will be the last to be cut.
I was a bit sorry for Pat Neary last night when he got the hair dryer treatment from Pat Rabbite...enjoyable though.
 
that was Pat Carey sunrock! Although Pat Neary, the former (light-touch) financial regulator, could've done with a similar tongue lashing IMO.:D

Majee
 
Unfortunately it was Pat Carey not Pat Neary.

Pat Neary has, eh, retired, and is enjoying his excellent pension somewhere.

Time to re-deploy the boycott methinks.

If the state cannot make its anger felt at certain individuals, then we should.
 
I just think its sad in terms of the affect it has and will have for a very long time...

It was a bit like being at the bedside of someone in ICU, not knowing if they were going to make it or not ,all the signs were that they have little chance of survival, and yet the experts/Doctors keep telling you not to worry they have it all under control , the person will be given medications and it will take time and the medicine doesn't taste too nice,but he will be fine..

Each day /Month and year that goes by, you see the person going downhill, you ask for reassurance and the experts /Doctors put a plaster on the patient ,and reassure you once again not to worry that all will be fine,that nothing can go wrong now that the patient has both a plaster and medication..

A year later, You are in the hospital canteen,there huddled in a corner is a group of consultants talking about the patient and you overhear them saying this is fatal,we need to intervene..you become more concerned and start to make preparations for the inevitable, you speak to the experts/doctors,but yet the expert/doctors insist the consultants are wrong,that you are wrong to be concerned, the person will survive.You are causing a fuss over nothing and they know what's best.Despite the fact that the patient has now lost conciousness..

Then as you attend the hospital one day, you see funeral bearers arrive..you ask why they are there ,is it for the patient you know in ICU, The expert,doctors tell you that they are not here for this reason but just in case you might like to discuss flower arrangements...Now you start to feel very insecure,all the signs are pointing to one thing,and yet you are relying on the experts/doctors as they have all the knowledge and power..you are beginning to feel powerless.

Then as you walk along the hospital corridor the hospital chiefs office door is open and he sees how frustrated and worried you look and decides to tell you what the real situation is, that it is in fact terminal, and now the treatment for the patent will be so severe that the cure may be worse than the illness.

Then today arrives, and as you stand by the graveside watching the coffin being put into the grave by the funeral bearers , the doctors/experts are helping to throw the clay on top of it..

The same doctors/experts sympathise with you and tell you ,we didn't inform you of how grave the situation ,because you are way to stupid to handle the truth,it was for your own good.
They then tell you that YOU shouldn't be ashamed that the patient died.
You then have a decision to make, would you use the same doctors/experts.
You are left with something tangible..its called IMF..its my fault...

It took a year in the ICU before "the patient has now lost conciousness" ? I would expect most patients in ICU are unconscious. Also work the HSE in somehow. Nobody would survive a year in their hospitals. Please rework analogy and repost. ;)
 
The IMF are here to make sure we pay back the German banks and don’t cause the Euro to lose value as that will destabilise the American recovery, which is dependent on a strong Euro and a weak dollar.
To extent the analogy above, if they can’t save the patient they will harvest the organs and sell the corpse to the knackers.
 
The Irish Times bleating on about 1916:( Heck the IMF came to the rescue of the UK in 1976 and I didn't hear anyone bemoaning "who won the war?".:eek:
 
In 1916 we got help from our "gallant allies in Europe" but unfortuantely it never reached Banna Bay. 94 years later help is on the way from Germany again
 
that was Pat Carey sunrock! Although Pat Neary, the former (light-touch) financial regulator, could've done with a similar tongue lashing IMO.:D

Majee

I stand corrected
Must have been subliminal as mr neary deserves more than the hair dryer..he needs to be exposed to a hotter machine.
Its appaling that our government can`t be honest with the Irish people.You can be sure that behind closed doors they are being much more upfront and humble to the IMF/ECB.
No wonder they couldn`t start austerity measures 2 years ago as they lied and spinned to the irish people.They are really treating us with contempt and insulting our intelligence, even lying about the role of the officials in dublin, when we all know that they are here to bail us out and dictate austerity measures.
 
I stand corrected
Must have been subliminal as mr neary deserves more than the hair dryer..he needs to be exposed to a hotter machine.
Its appaling that our government can`t be honest with the Irish people.You can be sure that behind closed doors they are being much more upfront and humble to the IMF/ECB.
No wonder they couldn`t start austerity measures 2 years ago as they lied and spinned to the irish people.They are really treating us with contempt and insulting our intelligence, even lying about the role of the officials in dublin, when we all know that they are here to bail us out and dictate austerity measures.

+1 couldn't agree more. And if I hear any more about what a great guy Lenihan is I'll go beserk! I DO feel empathy with him and his family given his illness but as far as his role as Minister of Finance ...aaaaaaagh. I keep getting told about his gravitas but it boils down to 1 question - name one thing he has actually done that has benefited us? He told us we had turned the corner after the last budget.....oooops! Told us it would be the cheapest garuantee ever - LOL!!!!!!! (if only it wasn't so serious...). I suspect he is genuine as opposed to to Cowan / Aherne / Ahern 2 / McCreevy but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately at this stage we need a lot more in our leaders!!!

Roy
 
Well, there is only one way we can go seeing that we cannot go any lower. All is not lost despite Cowen's Crew desperate attempts to make it so. I am not sure if Kenny's Brigade has much more to offer either, which leaves Labour, the Greens, Sinn Féin etc. You don't have to be an artist to draw conclusions but our destiny is outside our hands now.

Any pupil heading towards secondary school would be well advised to learn German, French and Chinese. There are only four million of us and we can easily be absorbed inside the EU. Is it a big deal losing our soverignty? Yes it is.

Let's say we are a firm of painters & decorators with some vans on the road. For years we competed with other firms managing to expand and suddenly after expanding too much and not being in control of our credit management we are taken over by (let's say) Anglo Irish Bank. Anglo (while good at white-washing are useless as painters) then decide how the business should be run on an hour-to-hour basis.

Not too far in the distance are the empty pages of decent jobs in our newspapers (remember the early 80s when all our main newspapers were not advertising even one job?). Get ready, those who are obliged to stay in Ireland wll have jobs in Call-Centres (Chicken Coups) on 3 month contracts hoping for a vacancy in some fast-food outlet (the eastern europeans will evacuate, have no doubt). Or perhaps we will have a few more Mary Byrnes where there will be vacancies in some supermarket created.

Despite all this caper of "hope", "going forward" and any other buzz words the future is bleak in Ireland.
 
personally I wouldn't be so pessimistic. About 20 months ago I started a thread on AAM called something like "what would be so bad about the IMF" and a lot of the feedback was shock horror and bewilderment. Yesterday they had a poll on WhineLine where 62% of people felt better now the IMF are here.

The most difficult situation that ordinary people (and markets for that matter) can face is uncertainty. When that uncertainty is led by gombeens / gob****es and corrupt politicians it adds to the state of depression. It's like going to work everyday in a company that's led by a crack addict - you don't know what the mood will be like and you can see your future being pi$$ed away. That's pretty much what we as a nation have been suffering for the last 10 years.

Our sovereingty was handed over to the bearded brethern, honorable idiots like Jackie Healy Rae and Michael Lowry, the bankers, the "developers", the "professions". I don't recall anyone asking us to vote on a €440 BILLION bet, and I don't recall anyone asking us to vote to see if we wanted the IMF in! Given this Govt is held together by a very motly crew its incredible that they could deny people a vote on issues of this magnitude but it was the same arrogance that Thatcher suffered from after being in power too long.

The IMF can bring certainty to the party - so lets welcome the Chopper and bid goodbye to the soldiers of destiny as they head into the sunset, hopefully for the last time.

Roy
 
honorable idiots like Jackie Healy Rae and Michael Lowry

In one of my previous incarnations I had a lot to do with Michael Lowry (although I doubt he remembers me!) in his professional rather than political capacity. Your first assertion about him is questionable at best. Your second is so far off the mark that....well....he definitely isn't that!

Jackie Healy Rae, on the other hand, would appear to fall at the first fence and clear the second nicely.
 
personally I wouldn't be so pessimistic. About 20 months ago I started a thread on AAM called something like "what would be so bad about the IMF" and a lot of the feedback was shock horror and bewilderment. Yesterday they had a poll on WhineLine where 62% of people felt better now the IMF are here.

"...The most difficult situation that ordinary people (and markets for that matter) can face is uncertainty ..."

"...The IMF can bring certainty to the party..."

Roy

All due respect, but a poll on whineline as to how people "feel", shouldn't be confused with the merits or effects which this economic bailout will have on us... listen in to Joe again in a few weeks after the IMF/EU budget is announced and see what's being said then :-(

"...The most difficult situation that ordinary people (and markets for that matter) can face is uncertainty ..."

This is so often bandied about that we should be wary of it .. "the markets hate uncertainty" etc. But quite the opposite is in fact true, markets love uncertainty cause that's how they function and turn a profit...if everyone's certain and all agree that a certain bond or share has a certain value then there's little scope for trading or profits being turned, which is what the markets need to function. Hence this "uncertainty" which we are always told the markets hate is so often fostered by those very markets themselves in order to widen spreads & increase their scope for profits. We are being encouraged to incur even more debt to help bring certainty to the very markets which by their nature are actively engaged in fostering such uncertainty for their own profit. Anyway, the only certainty out there, no matter how much more debt we're now going to burden ourselves with, is that we're never going to be able to pay all this debt off and that sometime in the future there must be some kind of a default. That's why our borrowing costs will not be significantly reduced by the markets because they also fully understand this and will continue to price in this future default risk into the foreseeable future.
Look at the new mortgage repayment guidelines for example which the gov & banks have signed up to going forward, ie only 66% of interest only without any principal need be repaid for the next 5 year period for those already in default (and all those soon to be). Sure this is just another example of yet again kicking the can further down the road to avoid confronting the problem now, namely that these huge mortgages will never be repaid in full and the writing is clearly on the wall that a write down/default will have to happen a little further down that road.

"...The IMF can bring certainty to the party..."

Again, the only certainty would appear to be that we are going to continue to get screwed & squeezed for as much money as the ECB and the foreign banks/bondholders can get out of us, until we can take no more and the inevitable default occurs...by which time this country could well be akin to a shell of it's former self.
 
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