Lorcan Sirr: We should encourage Irish people to live in apartments

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
58,275
www.irishtimes.com

Lorcan Sirr: Irish people don’t want to live in ‘mostly awful’ apartments. Here are 5 ways to fix them

Apartment living was historically seen as ‘unnatural’ in Ireland. But attitudes won’t change until standards do
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com

  1. The apartment has to be a suitable size, catering for people throughout their lives – single, with family, and maybe alone again – so generally 80-90sq m (flexible and resource-efficient) with some outdoor space.
  2. There must be laundry rooms and storage areas.
  3. The apartment needs to be in the right area. Local services such as shops, schools, cafes, hairdressers, bars and amenity space are vital for quality of life and creating communities. Being near functioning public transport means car use is reduced or redundant.
  4. My apartment blocks in Stockholm and Hungary had a permanent caretaker living at reduced rent (retired soldiers in both cases) taking in deliveries and doing minor repairs and maintenance, reducing the need for expensive management companies and security.
  5. Design and density are not trivial issues. Poorly designed homes are socially and economically destructive and can diminish Ireland’s international competitiveness”, as the RIAI has warned – especially when it comes to retaining talent. The opposite is also true.
 
Last edited:
Dont often agree with Lorcan Sirr but he is correct in this instance.

Sadly the decision makers are not always aligned with this.

Be interested to see wheat one of these 3 bed apts, built to a decent lifetime habitable size would cost.

ALONE express disappointment in Minister Alan Kelly's decision to build apartments smaller than the current minimum size - ALONE

“Our older people don’t want to go back to bedsit living” ALONE express disappoint over Minister Alan Kelly’s decision to allow studio apartments 22nd December 2015, Dublin ALONE have today expressed disappointment over Minister Alan Kelly’s decision to allow developers to build studio...
alone.ie alone.ie
 
"The apartment has to be a suitable size, catering for people throughout their lives."
Bit of a contradiction there. The apartment needs of a single person are not the same as those of a couple / family. I'm sure a single person would like an 80-90 square metre apartment to themselves but what's the rent\mortgage on that. Many single people would prefer a smaller space that they can afford so they have private space for themselves.
Maybe they meant to convey that with 'generally' but most people reading it will take it to mean they think the vast majority of apartments should be that size. It would have been better to emphasise that apartments have been typically too small for people at certain stages of their lives.

And also, a robust statutory backed framework that allows anti social conduct to be dealt with firmly in apartments and their common areas.
(which I have zero faith in happening but if you've lived in an apartment complex given the higher density anti social conduct has far more impact than in a housing estate and is a frequent source of complaints)
 
odyssey06 said:
"The apartment has to be a suitable size, catering for people throughout their lives."
Click to expand...

Yes, I found that curious.

It almost implies that a single person should buy a 3 bed apartment to cater for everything.

It would be much better if someone could start in a 1 bed apartment as a single person or couple.
Then move to a 2 bed in the same block/locality when they have kids.
Then a three bed when they have more kids.
Then back to a one bed when the kids have gone.

That would be relatively easy to do in a rental block if the block has a mix of 1, 2 and 3 bed apartments. But much more difficult for home owners.



Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
It almost implies that a single person should buy a 3 bed apartment to cater for everything.
Click to expand...
Even then a three bed is not a suitable size throughout the person's life. It is too big when they are single and likely too big in old age as well.

Also the young person who gets the 3 bed might never have a family, so the apartment is never of a suitable size.

It is hard to figure out what he's getting at here.
 
Greenbook said:
Even then a three bed is not a suitable size throughout the person's life. It is too big when they are single and likely too big in old age as well.
Click to expand...
As someone heading into my 60s I have zero intention of downsizing at any point. I will be carried out of my 4 bed house hopefully in my 106th year.
The thoughts of trying to fit my life into a 1 bed shoebox is not appealing in the slightest.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
The apartment has to be a suitable size . . . generally 80-90sq m
Click to expand...
According to chatgpt, citing Statistics Sweden, the average size of an apartment in Stockholm is 65-70 sq m, and the typical apartment has either kitchen and two other rooms, or kitchen and three other rooms. I think Lorcan's experience may not have been entirely typical, size-wise.
 
TomEdison said:
According to chatgpt, citing Statistics Sweden, the average size of an apartment in Stockholm is 65-70 sq m, and the typical apartment has either kitchen and two other rooms, or kitchen and three other rooms. I think Lorcan's experience may not have been entirely typical, size-wise.
Click to expand...
That also suggests that a typical Swedish apartment is a one or two bed - kitchen, living/dining room and bedroom for the kitchen and two room apartment.

Persia said:
As someone heading into my 60s I have zero intention of downsizing at any point. I will be carried out of my 4 bed house hopefully in my 106th year.
Click to expand...
We'd be in the same boat, but we're probably a bit more open to downsizing. And if children or friends are staying, the extra rooms are necessary. But there is still a contradiction in what he is saying. How do you guarantee that a one bed or a two bed or a three bed apartment will suit a person throughout their lives.

Brendan Burgess said:
My apartment blocks in Stockholm and Hungary had a permanent caretaker living at reduced rent (retired soldiers in both cases) taking in deliveries and doing minor repairs and maintenance, reducing the need for expensive management companies and security.
Click to expand...
Where were these apartments? Posh areas of Stockholm and Budapest? You might sing the praises of Irish apartments if you lived in one in D4. Other areas in Dublin or parts of the country would be a different experience entirely.
 
But according to construction industry they are not building appartments because they are too expensive and difficult to build. There is too much regulation and bureacracy when you cross all those hurdles then the height limits in cities makes them uneconomic so they dont get built. There is no point in building a 3 or 4 storey appartment block on expensive land . They need to remove alot of silly regulations and make the construction easier . If they dont consult with the industry on how to get projects off the ground it is all only aspirational anyway. There needs to be practical hands on input into alot of this stuff at government and bureacracy level.
 
TomEdison said:
Or it could be an open-plan kitchen/living/dining area, plus two bedrooms.
Click to expand...
It could, you are correct.

But as it says kitchen and two rooms, it could be that the kitchen is a separate room from the the other two. Also, possibly it is a kitchen/living/dining room as you say, one of the other rooms is a bedroom and the other one is the bathroom.

He could have been clearer. We are left guessing as to whether his kitchen plus two rooms is a one bed or a two bed apartment.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Just to be clear. That was Lorcan Sirr's comment and not mine.
Click to expand...
I should have been clearer. I meant that Lorcan Sirr doesn't specify where in Hungary and Sweden these apartments were. Does every apartment block in these countries have someone employed as permanent caretaker, for example, or is it just the higher end ones?
 
Greenbook said:
He could have been clearer. We are left guessing as to whether his kitchen plus two rooms is a one bed or a two bed apartment.
Click to expand...
No, the comments about typical size and configuration of apartments in Stockholm aren't from Lorcan Sirr. They're from Statistics Sweden, via chatgpt.

I'm reasonably confident that "kitchen" is a room with kitchen facilities in it, which may or may not also contain dining/livingroom facilities. Depending on whether it does or not, the other two rooms would probably be either (a) two bedrooms, or (b) one bedroom and a living and/or dining room. Bathrooms, closets, lobbies, etc would generally be in addition to this, and not counted as separate rooms.
 
Persia said:
As someone heading into my 60s I have zero intention of downsizing at any point. I will be carried out of my 4 bed house hopefully in my 106th year.
The thoughts of trying to fit my life into a 1 bed shoebox is not appealing in the slightest.
Click to expand...
I'm a few years behind you but I fully intend to downsize when the kids are gone. In my case it's a 6 bed home (lots of kids) and I see no point tying up wealth and rattling around a house that is far too big for our needs. A small house or large apartment would be ideal. I liked living in an apartment when I was young. You have minimal security concerns and the caretaker can water the flowers or whatever when you are away. I certainly wouldn't like to live in a 1 bed shoebox but anyone trading down from a 4 bed house could afford a nicer apartment than that.

My brother lives in a nice apartment in Rathgar. He finds that the store room he has off the underground car park is very temperature stable and so very suitable for storing wine, just in case that was one of your concerns.
 
I wonder what the economics of building 1 bed vs 2 beds are?

A 1 bed must have a kitchen and a bathroom so it takes up a certain amount of space.

But does the developer get more per square foot for 2 beds?
 
Spent some time in Switzerland where I found town centres were full of the young and the old. It was explained to me that you move out to the 'burbs to raise your kids. Once done, you move back. You're close to amienties, to healthcare, and public transport. Great idea as far as I'm concerned.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top