Is there something wrong with sentencing guidelines or with judges or both?

[Purple]

Rape within a marriage only became a crime in 1990.

Indeed, and until 1981 if a woman had an affair (committed adultery) her husband could sue the man she had the affair with for property damage... because legally she was his property.

A nice piece of information to share with any misogynists you may know.

When George Hook made awful comments blaming rape victims it feels like it was a hundred years ago but it was only 2017 and a lot of people agreed with him.

While his comments were really badly framed, and I disagreed with him in the substance and the timing of what he said, I think it is very unfair to say that he blamed rape victims. I didn't like him on the radio but I've never met anyone who knows him who has anything bad to say about him or thinks he's anything other than a completely decent person who has a deep concern for other people.

 

[arbitron]

I think it is very unfair to say that he blamed rape victims.

George Hook apologises for comments about rape case:

“But when you then look deeper into the story you have to ask certain questions. Why does a girl who just meets a fella in a bar go back to a hotel room? She’s only just barely met him. She has no idea of his health conditions, she has no idea who he is, she has no idea of what dangers he might pose.”

“But modern day social activity means that she goes back with him. Then is surprised when somebody else comes into the room and rapes her. Should she be raped? Course she shouldn’t. Is she entitled to say no? Absolutely. Is the guy who came in a scumbag? Certainly. Should he go to jail? Of Course. All of those things,” he said.

“But is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?” he said.

Mr Hook also said: “There is personal responsibility because it’s your daughter and it’s my daughter. And what determines the daughter who goes out, gets drunk, passes out and is with strangers in her room and the daughter that goes out, stays halfway sober and comes home, I don’t know. I wish I knew. I wish I knew what the secret of parenting is.

“But there is a point of responsibility. The real issues nowadays and increasingly is the question of the personal responsibility that young girls are taking for their own safety.”

 

[Purple]

He said that she had a responsibility for her own safety. He didn't say it was her fault she was raped. It was awkward and ham-fisted and grossly inappropriate and offensive, especially in the circumstances.

I have two daughters. I tell them to be carful and not to put themselves in harms way. I tell them that the vast majority of people are good and decent and so absolutely not to live their lives being afraid. I tell them that even if they do something stupid and something bad happens the actions of bad people are not their fault. I won't get into details but something bad happened to one of them before.

I have two sons. I know that they are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime. I tell them more of less the same things that I tell my daughters.

 

[mathepac]

This may be OT, but please don't delete me or move the post. I found this in the odz-n-endz drawer this morning, rooting for something else. A few years ago I bought a few of them for each of my female family members, child and adult, after my sister was chased by some lunatic while out legally and innocently canvassing prior to a general election. No harm came to her other than the fright, thankfully, but it brought the vulnerability message very close to home. Try Dealz, Pound Shop, or other such outlets. To be worn around the wrist or neck, or attached to clothing. Forgive the doggy-hairs, its her end of the couch!

 

[Firefly]

I found this in the odz-n-endz drawer this morning

Hi mathepac,
Is that a regular whistle, or something special?
Firefly

 

[mathepac]

a regular whistle

Cheapo, just makes noise and attracts attention

 

[arbitron]

This thread is about sentencing but that is looking at it backwards. Most victims tell no-one. About 5% will report it to gardaí. So the numbers prosecuted and jailed are minuscule. It's made more complicated by the fact that rapists are rarely evil strangers: 70% are men known to the victim, usually a partner or ex. Social norms and the certainty of consequences influence behaviour far more than sentence length, so actually catching rapists and prosecuting them is more important overall than the exact sentence they get.

There is not a girl or woman in Ireland who heard what George Hook said and thought "Great advice, that never occurred to me." Half of Irish women experience sexual violence, 1 in 5 are raped. Right from birth girls are treated like they are incapable of looking after themselves while simultaneously being told that they must always be on alert and take responsibility for the dangers that men pose to them: "dress modestly, don't go out out alone, keep your drink in your hand, never get drunk, don't walk down a dark street, put on your live location, carry a rape alarm, text me when you get home."

Yet they are still attacked. And if they forgot their rape whistle they will feel they did something wrong. Because that is what it sounds like to a victim when a sports pundit asks on the national airwaves "is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?"

The Hook incident was almost a decade ago but look at the surreal stuff that went on at the Ballinrobe parade last week:

Fathers of teenage boys involved in ‘Epstein Files’ float in St Patrick’s Day parade defend their sons after outrage

A video clip of an “Epstein Files” St Patrick’s Day float from the Ballinrobe parade in Mayo featuring an apparent re-enactment of sexual assault and described as “an appalling failure of judgment” has gone viral after it was uploaded on social media.

A person on the float, wearing a wig and lying on a mattress, can be seen being wrestled down by a number of other people.

The father of one of the young men who was in the Epstein Files float said he believes the matter has been blown out of proportion.

“They were fairly colourful and made many people laugh...”

“They went out with the idea of having a bit of fun and maybe win a prize,” he added. “They had done it as pure fun and they just didn’t have enough cop-on to realise it would offend people. They are too young and innocent to realise they did harm.

“Maybe there wasn’t a funny side to it, but there is great nature in those young lads. And they don’t cause trouble. They don’t have it easy, young people now. They meant no harm.”

A bad decision by the boys involved (who are absolutely old enough to know better) but then they are excused by their parents who either don't see the problem or don't have the guts to address this behaviour. I wonder how the fathers defending those boys would feel if one of their daughters had been assaulted and someone was making fun of it.

We can debate prison sentences til the cows come home but until society (and men in particular) takes a zero tolerance approach to the sort of talk and behaviour that normalises sexual assault then we are just enabling it.

 

[Purple]

This thread is about sentencing but that is looking at it backwards. Most victims tell no-one. About 5% will report it to gardaí. So the numbers prosecuted and jailed are minuscule. It's made more complicated by the fact that rapists are rarely evil strangers: 70% are men known to the victim, usually a partner or ex. Social norms and the certainty of consequences influence behaviour far more than sentence length, so actually catching rapists and prosecuting them is more important overall than the exact sentence they get.

Agree 100% with that but the reporting rate is around 30%, a big increase in recent years.

There is not a girl or woman in Ireland who heard what George Hook said and thought "Great advice, that never occurred to me."

Very true.

Half of Irish women experience sexual violence, 1 in 5 are raped.

Yes, almost twice as many women as men experience sexual violence in their lifetime. What is interesting is that in the EU 1 in 6 women experience sexual violence or rape in their lifetime. I don't believe that our rates are 3 times higher than the EU average so something is wrong there. Perhaps our reporting levels are much higher.

Right from birth girls are treated like they are incapable of looking after themselves while simultaneously being told that they must always be on alert and take responsibility for the dangers that men pose to them: "dress modestly, don't go out out alone, keep your drink in your hand, never get drunk, don't walk down a dark street, put on your live location, carry a rape alarm, text me when you get home."

Yet they are still attacked. And if they forgot their rape whistle they will feel they did something wrong. Because that is what it sounds like to a victim when a sports pundit asks on the national airwaves "is there no blame now to the person who puts themselves in danger?"

Also true, though the perception of danger when out socialising etc is far greater than the actual risk of attack. By and large women are at a higher risk of being attacked or killed in their own homes and men are more at risk of being attacked or killed outside their homes.

The Hook incident was almost a decade ago but look at the surreal stuff that went on at the Ballinrobe parade last week:

Fathers of teenage boys involved in ‘Epstein Files’ float in St Patrick’s Day parade defend their sons after outrage


A bad decision by the boys involved (who are absolutely old enough to know better) but then they are excused by their parents who either don't see the problem or don't have the guts to address this behaviour. I wonder how the fathers defending those boys would feel if one of their daughters had been assaulted and someone was making fun of it.

We can debate prison sentences til the cows come home but until society (and men in particular) takes a zero tolerance approach to the sort of talk and behaviour that normalises sexual assault then we are just enabling it.

I hadn't heard that story. It's absolutely shocking that anyone though it would be okay and worse that it's being excused.

 

[Leper]

I didn't see the St-Patrick's Day floats in question. But, I'm sure they were entered just as a piece of fun. I don't believe any malice or offence was meant or intended. I fell also that the George Hook situation got out of hand.

Such crimes against people are deplorable and sentences should be reviewed asap. We have a judiciary, Garda force, lawyers, politicians, peoples' groups etc - Is it not time for them to speak together and join the dotted lines?

I reckon it has got to a stage in Ireland that nobody can say anything about anything anymore without the holier-than-thou merchants jumping down your throat.

 

[Ceist Beag]

I didn't see the St-Patrick's Day floats in question. But, I'm sure they were entered just as a piece of fun. I don't believe any malice or offence was meant or intended.

I think you are illustrating the point made by @arbitron here Leper. To suggest that it's just a piece of fun to depict sexual violence in this manner shows a total lack of judgement of those involved (which presumably included some adults). You cannot play this one down as the "holier-than-thou merchants jumping down your throat", that is just the wrong call on what happened. It's even worse that the parents are defending their sons here. They should see that this was a mistake, accept it and try and do better in the future.

 

[arbitron]

I didn't see the St-Patrick's Day floats in question. But, I'm sure they were entered just as a piece of fun. I don't believe any malice or offence was meant or intended.

I am old fashioned as I consider St Patrick's Day parades to be family events. Next year perhaps they will do a skit about a school shooting.

The Epstein victimes are real live girls and women, some of whom will probably have heard about the parade. I wonder how they feel about it all. Maybe the boys and parents involved should listen to wise old Hook and take personal responsibility for their actions.

Such crimes against people are deplorable and sentences should be reviewed asap. We have a judiciary, Garda force, lawyers, politicians, peoples' groups etc - Is it not time for them to speak together and join the dotted lines?

The judiciary, gardai, lawyers, politicians etc. are mostly men, many of whom still have a "boys will be boys" attitude and some of whom will even be perpetrators of sexual violence themselves. The conversations about this need to happen in homes, schools, churches, pubs, sports clubs, etc. Unfortunately what we have seen over centuries is that women tend to have to fight for their rights as men generally downplay or ignore them.

I reckon it has got to a stage in Ireland that nobody can say anything about anything anymore without the holier-than-thou merchants jumping down your throat.

And yet here we are, discussing this anonymously on a public forum free of charge, so there is hope for free speech yet. Not sure what is holier than thou about taking sexual assault seriously.

 

[mathepac]

This thread is about sentencing

As the OP I asked the question "Is there something wrong with sentencing guidelines or with judges or both?". It's not any specific crime, criminal, offences, or offender, frequency or difficulty of reporting or of prosecution. Feel free to start a different thread or threads about the other matters. And it certainly isn't about crimes/sentences in other jurisdictions.

 

[Leo]

Feel free to start a different thread or threads about the other matters.

Like whistles and such?

 

[arbitron]

As the OP I asked the question "Is there something wrong with sentencing guidelines or with judges or both?". It's not any specific crime, criminal, offences, or offender, frequency or difficulty of reporting or of prosecution. Feel free to start a different thread or threads about the other matters. And it certainly isn't about crimes/sentences in other jurisdictions.

We were discussing ideas related to the sexual assault case you posted about earlier in the thread. And it's Letting Off Steam.

Yes, there is probably something wrong with both sentencing guidelines and judges. But there has been gradual, steady improvement in transparency and consistency of sentencing.

Sentencing is decided based on multiple factors to varying degrees, including: precedent, Irish statutes, the Constitution, the ECHR, etc. And yes even by crimes/sentences in other jurisdictions. And as we were discussing above, judges are human beings influenced by their personal experiences and social norms, both negative and positive.

On conviction there is a headline sentence of let's say 10 years. The judge takes off 1 year because the criminal pleaded guilty right away, sparing the victim a long process where they would have had to give evidence, and sparing the state the expense of a long trial. The criminal has no record, so the court gives another 1 year off (de facto penalty for repeat offenders). The criminal has a serious drug addiction so they are given 6 months off (lower culpability?). Since committing the crime they have gone through rehab and are now back in education, another 6 month off (rewarding people who make a positive change, de facto penalty against people who do not). And so on.

These are done so that people are rewarded for doing things that benefit the victims, the courts, the state, or society in general. Encourages early guilt pleas, promotes rehabilitation, takes into account the circumstances of the criminal/crime, etc.

I often wondered why people were not given a base sentence and then penalties applied for not co-operating, but I was told it would be against core principles of our legal system. It could be seen as a punishment for people who insist on their right to a trial, presumption of innocence, right to silence. It seems like sophistry but I suppose in general we know it is more effective to encourage positive action than to penalise negative ones.

Every crime is different so it seems sensible that the court would have leeway to reflect that. It's inevitable that there will be disagreement, no matter what approach is taken.

 

[mathepac]

Like whistles and such?

Jeeze, thanks for that wonderful insight @Leo. I already flagged my comments as OT, or an aside if you prefer. Is that an open invitation for what followed? Preparing myself ...

 

[Purple]

The Epstein victimes are real live girls and women, some of whom will probably have heard about the parade. I wonder how they feel about it all. Maybe the boys and parents involved should listen to wise old Hook and take personal responsibility for their actions.

I agree 100%

The judiciary, gardai, lawyers, politicians etc. are mostly men, many of whom still have a "boys will be boys" attitude and some of whom will even be perpetrators of sexual violence themselves.

Just under half of our Judges are women though higher court judges are more likely to be men due to the historic gender imbalance. The majority of Barristers and Solicitor are women. A significant majority of legal graduates and newly qualified lawyers are women. Perhaps that will create a future gender imbalance. Given the numbers of people involved it is almost certain that some of the above groups, of both genders, will be perpetrators of domestic and sexual abuse.

I don't like the term Gender based Violence as it excludes men as victims of domestic and sexual crimes and feeds into the extremist misogynistic nonsense that is peddled to impressionable young men and boys.

The conversations about this need to happen in homes, schools, churches, pubs, sports clubs, etc.

I agree.

Unfortunately what we have seen over centuries is that women tend to have to fight for their rights as men generally downplay or ignore them.

I'm not a fan of divisive sweeping generalisations.

 

[Leo]

Jeeze, thanks for that wonderful insight @Leo. I already flagged my comments as OT, or an aside if you prefer.

I just enjoyed the irony of you advising others they should stick to the subject matter while seeming to think it's fine to go completely off-topic yourself.

 

[mathepac]

Five men jailed after branding iron attack on man

Consecutive sentencing but significant discounting persists.

"Ms Justice Karen O'Connor described it as a violent vicious and ongoing attack involving a number of weapons, a branding iron, an e-bike, a breaker bar, a Stanley knife, an axe and waterboarding.

She said it was difficult for the court to accept remorse from the men except for Devon Hennessy who pleaded guilty at an early stage.

"We do accept they have expressed remorse but it was late in the day when the trial had started so we can’t attach huge weight to it," she said.

"The facts of the case are shocking," she said. "Words are not sufficient to describe the horror which bypasses any notion of humanity."

She also described the photographs of the branding of Mr Moore as "of a most disturbing nature".

The court must sentence four of the men for assault causing harm with a maximum sentence of ten years after the plea was accepted by the DPP, she said.

Jason Hennessy Jr was sentenced to eight and a half years in prison.

Brandon Hennessy was sentenced to six years in prison, but because he committed the offence on bail the sentence is consecutive to one he is serving which concludes on 16 February 2028. Today's sentence begins then.

Devon Hennessy was sentenced to three years in prison because he tried to intervene and pleaded guilty at an early stage.

Dean Fitzsimons was sentenced to eight and a half years in prison, while his father Kenneth Fitzsimons was sentenced eight years in prison."

 

[Leper]

I'm probably the oldest contributor to this forum. In all my years I haven't felt so disgusted with any sentencing than the relatively short jail terms given yesterday to the Hennessys. They all got off lightly and will serve much less than their due time and at the cost to the Irish taxpayer. They showed no remorse; in fact they scowled towards the television cameras and later their "women-folk" just mockingly jeered at the tv cameras. The main witness was scared to appear as a witness, I would be scared also.

I reckon many people will be living in constant fear of those criminals being released from prison. I don't know of too much of the crime history of all the people involved, but I'm sure it is quite a disturbing set of history. I have my own thoughts on the solution to all this, but I reckon it wouldn't (rightly) be allowed on here.

 

[arbitron]

The Hennessy trial almost collapsed because the victim (and main witness) Barry Moore didn't turn up to testify and they had to issue a bench warrant. He had fled to the UK as he had been threatened. The Gardaí pressed for a prosecution, the judge agreed it was in the public interest, so Moore was arrested and forced to attend court. He refused to speak and never actually gave evidence.

The DPP pushed ahead in spite of this. Luckily one of the Hennessys had already pleaded guilty (before the victim withdrew) and the court was able to rely on previous statements and evidence. The other defendants then pleaded guilty also.

If Moore had testified, it's likely that some/all of the defendants would have received headline life sentences. But because there was no testimony, the DPP accepted pleas to lesser charges, otherwise there would have been a risk of appeals/challenges to any conviction or, worse, no conviction at all.

Once they pleaded to the lesser charges, the court could only sentence accordingly. The process and outcome in this case was actually an example of the gardai, DPP, and courts working effectively to get a substantial win within a rules-based system. The issue here was witness intimidation which is a notoriously difficult problem to address.

And this is nowhere near the worst sentencing outcome. While it was before my time, I'm sure many here will remember the Murder of Declan Flynn in Fairview Park in Dublin in 1982. Five men/teens attacked and killed an innocent man in a planned attack. The judge found them guity of manslaughter but let them walk free because they were young and the victim was gay. A few years later one of the killers raped a pregnant woman and was jailed for 10 years. The Flynn case remains one of the worst decisions made by an Irish court but thankfully would be unlikely today.