Is there broad support for the current Public Sector strikes?

[Leo]

If you presented yourself to your GP, or A&E on the day of the industrial strike with serious symptoms you would have been treated by medical staff.

No surprise on the GPs surely? GPs are independent contractors, not public sector employees. GP trainees are under public contract, but I assume you're not referring to them.

If you present yourself for a screening of any kind without any obvious symptoms or ailments that is your own arrangement the HSE does not schedule it for you.

You can't simply present yourself for screening at a public hospital, they require referral from your GP, and they control the appointment schedule.

 

[Sister Sara]

All in-patient appointments were cancelled that day, there was a skeleton staff in place to cover any emergencies that arose during the day, but emergencies don't make appointments.

This is the HSE notice for the day https://about.hse.ie/news/disruptio...-october-due-to-public-sector-work-stoppages/

 

[Sister Sara]

You can't simply present yourself for screening at a public hospital, they require referral from your GP, and they control the appointment schedule.

I've clearly referenced referrals from GP's in earlier posts, no need to repeat.

 

[Sister Sara]

they are escalated for admission or transfer to a site offering the procedure required. Presentations that give rise to sufficient concern skip the queue in the on-site labs too

Yes, urgent, time-critical cases, in extreme cases referred to as emergencies.

 

[Leo]

I've clearly referenced referrals from GP's in earlier posts, no need to repeat.

Why not address the core question - who's simply presenting themselves for public screening without the HSE making an appointment?

 

[Leo]

Yes, urgent, time-critical cases, in extreme cases referred to as emergencies.

Yes, emergencies. But of course those are not processed through A&E as you claimed.

 

[Sister Sara]

Why not address the core question

The core question, that I'm engaged in, is the amount of people who will allegedly die as a consequence of the industrial action last week.

I've read no reports of increased deaths, or deaths as a consequence.

 

[Sister Sara]

Yes, emergencies. But of course those are not processed through A&E as you claimed.

Emergencies are not processed through A&E?? That's a new one to me.

Perhaps you could enlighten me to a condition where upon in a scheduled appointment with a GP it is the assessment of the GP that you should be immediately admitted to hospital, that that admission is not processed through A&E?

 

[Purple]

Perhaps you could enlighten me to a condition where upon in a scheduled appointment with a GP it is the assessment of the GP that you should be immediately admitted to hospital, that that admission is not processed through A&E?

For the umpteenth time: Most cancer diagnosis are the result of symptoms found during routine (non-emergency) screening.
That screening didn't take place during the days strike. Therefore those symptoms were not identified, further tests were not scheduled and diagnoses did not happen.
The routine tests will be rescheduled for aa later date and on that later date those symptoms will be found, further imaging will be scheduled and the patient will get their diagnosis, but there will have been a delay in receiving that diagnosis because of the delay in the start of the whole process. The later the diagnosis the less the chance is of the patient has of making a recovery.

None of the above is in any way contentious. It is established fact grounded in decades of data. It is the reason the State pushes for more screening of the population.

 

[Sister Sara]

Most cancer diagnosis are the result of symptoms found during routine (non-emergency) screening.

For the umpteenth time: If a patient has no known ailments and their routine appointment with their GP was cancelled last week (on account of the nurse that is to take the blood-test being on strike) the patient can re-schedule that appointment with the GP in their own time. The strike notice was given and widely reported on in advance of it occurring.

If the subsequent appointment (say in three months later) returns blood results that may indicate an ailment, a form of cancer, those results will be assessed on the urgency of the situation. If the matter is considered urgent, then they will be seen to promptly. There is no way of determining if the initial postponed appointment would have yielded same results or even all-clear results.

In other words, the industrial action is as likely to have saved peoples lives via a later appointment and subsequent diagnosis as much as it is to be attributed to anyone's death.

But to suggest it is saving anyone's life or attributable to anyone's death is as daft as saying shame on people who buy and sell cars as invariably some of them will be involved in fatal car accidents.

 

[Purple]

If the subsequent appointment (say in three months later) returns blood results that may indicate an ailment, a form of cancer, those results will be assessed on the urgency of the situation. If the matter is considered urgent, then they will be seen to promptly. There is no way of determining if the initial postponed appointment would have yielded same results or even all-clear results.

In other words, the industrial action is as likely to have saved peoples lives via a later appointment and subsequent diagnosis as much as it is to be attributed to anyone's death.

But to suggest it is saving anyone's life or attributable to anyone's death is as daft as saying shame on people who buy and sell cars as invariably some of them will be involved in fatal car accidents

Okay, so there's a 3 month delay in the initial screening appointment and therefore a three month delay in the start of the process that leads to their diagnosis and a three month delay in treatment and the resulting diminution of their chance of a positive outcome.

What don't you understand?

 

[Leo]

The core question, that I'm engaged in, is the amount of people who will allegedly die as a consequence of the industrial action last week.

But you're addressing that issue with misinformation and false statements. You are either doing so deliberately, or you simply don't know how the public health service operates here.

 

[Leo]

Emergencies are not processed through A&E?? That's a new one to me.

Correct, emergencies detected through routine out-patient screenings are never processed through A&E.

 

[Leo]

or the umpteenth time: If a patient has no known ailments and their routine appointment with their GP was cancelled last week

Why are you still talking about GPs? They are not public sector employees!

 

[Leo]

If the subsequent appointment (say in three months later) returns blood results that may indicate an ailment, a form of cancer, those results will be assessed on the urgency of the situation.

Why then do the Irish Cancer Society say that a 4 week delay can increase mortality by 10%?

 

[Purple]

Excellent article by Pat Leahy in todays Irish Times.
He points out the average yearly pay of various groups of State Sector employees (Nurses & Midwives €88,000, Primary School Teachers €91,000, Secondary School Teachers €86,000, Hospital Doctors €198,000, Gardai €95,000). He correctly states that while those figures don't tell us everything they also certainly don't tell us nothing. He also notes that the above figures don't take pension values into account. For those older higher paid State employees that adds 25% to 50% (in the case of Gardai who get to retire after 30 years) to the value of their quoted income.

His final point is that those State Employees who are struggling most are the younger ones on lower incomes who are paying high rents and mortgages. If the Unions were really interested in solidarity they would be agitating for the reform or removal of the increments system and a weighting of all pay increases towards the bottom end of the scale, as well as a Dublin (or city) premium.

 

[Firefly]

Great article and I'm surprised the IT printed it, given the usual stance on such matters

From the article:

"..the system of automatic increments (ie increases in salary), which means that workers are rewarded for getting older, rather than better, at their jobs. These are not, I regret to say, the same thing."

I would like to know why increments are not included in pay talks?

 

[Sister Sara]

Why then do the Irish Cancer Society say that a 4 week delay can increase mortality by 10%?

Probably because a 4week delay in cancer treatment (for people with cancer, that is) can lead to increase in mortality by 10% ???

4 weeks being some 28 times greater than a 1-day industrial stoppage, where as reported in RTE and notice issued by HSE "Ambulance services are also operating at reduced capacity, and other critical and time-sensitive healthcare services, including urgent cancer treatment and dialysis, continue to operate."

Strike action disrupts health services across country

A 4 week delay in treatment can lead to a 10% increase in mortality for cancer patients is wholly different to allegations of 1-day postponement of non-cancer , non-diagnosed, non-life threatening, non-urgent ailments that "will" lead to people dying and attempts to then attribute shame on these workers.

The delays in cancer treatments highlighted by the Irish Cancer Society in their pre-budget submission pre-dates the industrial action and it is useful to read it (no doubt you have?).

Particularly where it frequently references, amongst other matters:-

- investment in staffing; - Cancer surgeries are frequently delayed due to shortages in staffing ; - Our healthcare staff do everything they can to minimise the impacts and care for patients. However, it is simply not possible to provide optimal care in these conditions; - Fund the physical expansion of treatment facilities such as oncology day wards and surgery theatres, to increase patient capacity (alongside increase in staffing capacity); Delays are caused by insufficient staffing for genetic testing services; Without investing in infrastructure, staff capacity and tools for early detection, patients will pay the price for delayed diagnosis with poorer survival outcomes and quality of life. - 1 in 2 INMO nurses feel pressure to work more hours/shifts to compensate for staffing deficits....and on it goes.

So the very people that are standing up for better patient care and taking action are being demonised. The attributation of 'shame' on healthcare workers needs to be put where it belongs - in the bin.
So perhaps the discussion would benefit if some posters would back-off with the loaded language of 'shame', particularly if they themselves have first hand experience of the service provision of our healthcare staff?

On a broader point of the topic title, the public service is a broad brush and I do think reform of pay-scale increments is long overdue which I may address in a separate post. As mentioned earlier, I voted against industrial action but took part in it in support of those public service workers who I believe have a genuine case for better pay and conditions.

 

[Itchy]

Why then do the Irish Cancer Society say that a 4 week delay can increase mortality by 10%?

Today’s figures highlight alarming failures to meet those targets in many cancer centres, due to shortages of staff, physical space, and equipment.

The issue of strikes exacerbating mortality is minimal in the context of the existing issues. The rush to overstate and exaggerate the impact is destroying this debate.

 

[Sister Sara]

I would like to know why increments are not included in pay talks?

Its not an unreasonable question.

In summary, incremental pay scales operate as the position of Garda, Nurse, Civil Servant etc, and by grade, title, etc is valued at €X.

But no new recruit starts on €X.

So if a fully qualified [insert public servant, grade] is valued at, say €60K, calculated on 39 working week, Mon to Fri, a new recruit will only start on a partial amount, say €45K, and over 10-15yrs (depending on post) of 'satisfactory performance' and gathering valuable experience, will obtain the true value of the post unless otherwise promoted or recruited elsewhere.

As older, more experienced recruits retire at €60k they are invariably replaced by younger less experienced recruits at €45K, thus effectively nullifying the effect of increments on the public expenditure bill, albeit critical to the individual office holder.

After that, the incremental pay-scale is typically adjusted for inflation through public service pay agreements. So if we need to recruit more [insert public servant, grade] we know their starting salary, in this case, is €45K rising to €60K over 10-15yrs. If €45K cannot attract the new recruits then it is necessary to increase it, and in turn, all other points in the pay scale to compensate service and experience.

Pro's: it brings (or has brought) a cohesion and stability to a staff of 300,000 that provide essential services to the State, both wanted and needed, that is critical for the day-to-day functioning of the State (as imperfect as it is) and also its long-term survival.

Cons: Out of 300,000 there is surely a small percentage of some individual 'unsatisfactory performers', and for sure, a way to deal with them appropriately would not go a miss.

Also acknowledging there are other benefits of pension etc.