KBC Is the KBC 'prevailing' rate argument dead in the water?

mccoypat94

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Is the KBC 'prevailing' rate arguement dead in the water?
There seemed to be some hope that the ambuigity in the terminology used at that time was an arguement for a tracker , and I seem to recall P Kissane highlighting this in some interviews.
However it doesnt appear at this stage that anyone has had sucess arguing a case, am I correct?
 

Lightening

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I don't believe anyone on this thread can give you the correct answer to that question right now. You need to contact Padraic Kissane since he met with KBC recently he would know the answer. He sat in front of top management and he would know the position as it stands.
 

mccoypat94

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I got a letter yesterday and its fairly definative as to where the bank stands on it, doubt Padraic will have got a different answer regardless of what his own views may be:(
 

unfortunate

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Did they explain the term? I've asked for info on it including glossary of terms and brochures from the period to see an explanation for it. Waiting to hear back still. Interested to see what they can come back with.
 

peemac

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I think it is, as the wording usually says

"at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply"

Prevailing I take as meaning "current, at the time" - by having the words "at the end of the fixed rate period" it would mean the rate current at that time - eg the date that the fixed rate finishes.
 
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Sanparom

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I don't think it's dead in the water if the prevailing variable rate didn't actually apply at all. It seems from that wording that a person would roll to prevailing variable (could have been tracker or SVR), but that often did not happen and people were still given letters trying to convince them to fix. We are the forgotten few. The whole focus with KBC is on the infamous flyer and there are other people (whether in this cohort or others!) who could also be entitled. They made other mistakes too - it wasn't all about the flyer, but they're doing a good job at making it look like it was!
 

unfortunate

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I think it is, as the wording usually says

"at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply"

Prevailing I take as meaning "current, at the time" - by having the words "at the end of the fixed rate period" it would mean the rate current at that time - eg the date that the fixed rate finishes.
Or to put another spin on it at the end of the fixed rate period the prevailing, (current, as in now when read), variable rate will apply. Just saying.
 

unfortunate

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KBC statements and other papers advertising in post today. They advertise fixed, SVR and other variable rates ( LTV ). There must have been difference back in the day between SVR and prevailing. Just waiting on their so slow reply to queries as usual.
 

Jazzer1

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. No my point being if SVR existed in 2005 or earlier/later, why wasn't it used in contract and if it wasn't then prevailing rate wasn't SVR
Myself and gnf had this argument before on another thread. But I agree with you unfortunate. Prevailing rate was without doubt a "tracker rate" 10 years ago that is what the Brokers understood it to be too. But kbc have someway convinced the central bank that" it wasn't exactly a tracker " words of Dara Deering from kbc to the Oireachtas. If we were to revert to a standard rate why did they not state SRV on the contract. I also have IIB homeloans renewal rate on my contract too!. Whatever the hell thats meant to be!.
 

gnf_ireland

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Prevailing rate was without doubt a "tracker rate" 10 years ago
I agree that "10 years ago the prevailing rate was a tracker rate", but today the prevailing rate would be classified as a LTV variable rate. 5 years ago (2013) the prevailing rate would be SVR, as there was little alternatives available.


After that its down to interpretation of the english language, where the comma's in the sentences are and the detail of the grammar used. This is the tricky part and one that people will disagree on.

"at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply"
I think most can agree that prevailing means current.
How important is that comma in the sentence?
How important is the sequencing of the text - is it different to "the prevailing variable rate will apply at the end of the fixed rate period"

I will let an English teacher/professor clarify that, as I don't want to expose any potential limitations in my grammar :)

Speaking of language, I wonder has anyone ever asked KBC for a mortgage contract in Irish?? Just curious now
 

peemac

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I certainly think there is no ambiguity if the wording is "at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply" - it gives a specific time of reference and by the fact that they say "variable", it also shows that the actual rate is an unknown.

It probably one of the weakest arguments and a difficult one to argue.

I think the only angles are those who applied before the infamous nov 6th date and drew down afterwards as the flyer says "all fixed rates will now roll over to tracker" As the contract only commences on drawdown, then I'd certainly be fighting strongly if I drew down after Nov 6th and was not put on a tracker .

I'm surprised the cb has not challenged this.
 

gnf_ireland

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I think the only angles are those who applied before the infamous nov 6th date and drew down afterwards as the flyer says "all fixed rates will now roll over to tracker" As the contract only commences on drawdown, then I'd certainly be fighting strongly if I drew down after Nov 6th and was not put on a tracker
Agree partially with this and I have said this a number of times on the other thread. Whatever about drawdown date, those who signed their letter of Offer after 6th November should be included as they would have been in regular contact with the broker from the application date to offer date, when the flyer came out. The broker was bound to mention it to them at the time !
 

bazual

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Hi folks, I received a letter today advising I was one of the ones impacted and would be placed on a tracker rate from end of February which seems to have already taken effect.
I honestly did not expect this as it was the same argument as you had mentioned above and the wording which stated "at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply"
To summarize, started in Jan 2008 for 5 years fixed which would have reverted to the above after the 5 years.

I went through all documentation and did come across a brochure called "mortgage handbook". There is one page that gives details of the fixed rate which I think would possibly support cases above.

The wording states under the fixed rate section "When the fixed rate you chose comes to an end, you can agree another fixed rate, or you can switch to a variable or tracker rate at the time. The choice is yours." This is possibly the reason why I am in scope for this as I was not offered the rate based on the mortgage handbook I received for my mortgage.

I can upload some screenshots of the manual if that is of some help.

Thanks,
B~
 

peemac

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Hi folks, I received a letter today advising I was one of the ones impacted and would be placed on a tracker rate from end of February which seems to have already taken effect.
I honestly did not expect this as it was the same argument as you had mentioned above and the wording which stated "at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply"
To summarize, started in Jan 2008 for 5 years fixed which would have reverted to the above after the 5 years.

I went through all documentation and did come across a brochure called "mortgage handbook". There is one page that gives details of the fixed rate which I think would possibly support cases above.

The wording states under the fixed rate section "When the fixed rate you chose comes to an end, you can agree another fixed rate, or you can switch to a variable or tracker rate at the time. The choice is yours." This is possibly the reason why I am in scope for this as I was not offered the rate based on the mortgage handbook I received for my mortgage.

I can upload some screenshots of the manual if that is of some help.

Thanks,
B~
You are back on tracker becasue the infamous flyer sent to brokers stated that fixed rates would roll onto a specific tracker rate (1.25% for most).

As trackers were no longer available in 2013 when your fixed rate ended, the condition in the booklet would not have applied. In addition, if the flyer did not exists and you pushed them on above, and they relented, they could simply have done what aib did and said the tracker margin was 3.67%.

You will now receive a nice refund of the overpaid interest they took from 2013 to last month :)
 

Darn40

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Hi folks, I received a letter today advising I was one of the ones impacted and would be placed on a tracker rate from end of February which seems to have already taken effect.
I honestly did not expect this as it was the same argument as you had mentioned above and the wording which stated "at the end of the fixed rate period, the prevailing variable rate will apply"
To summarize, started in Jan 2008 for 5 years fixed which would have reverted to the above after the 5 years.

I went through all documentation and did come across a brochure called "mortgage handbook". There is one page that gives details of the fixed rate which I think would possibly support cases above.

The wording states under the fixed rate section "When the fixed rate you chose comes to an end, you can agree another fixed rate, or you can switch to a variable or tracker rate at the time. The choice is yours." This is possibly the reason why I am in scope for this as I was not offered the rate based on the mortgage handbook I received for my mortgage.

I can upload some screenshots of the manual if that is of some help.

Thanks,
B~
Interesting to see you are in the timeframe of the infamous flyer yet you have that wording in you contract.
but I think peemac is correct in saying that you are getting a tracker mortgage as you are within the flyer timeframe.

This issue is confusing to say the least Kbc intended to roll fixed contracts (within the flyer) ???
And have the same wording in the flyer contract as we have in ours.

The lenders prevailing variable rate is also used in some tracker mortgage contracts as some have said on this site before.



If you could post the pictures of the handbook I’d like to see them thanks.
 

Johnc6

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My booklet from 2005 says "When the fixed rate you chose comes to an end, you can agree another fixed rate, or you can switch to the variable rate at the time. The choice is yours." My point/argument with them is at the end of the fixed rate I was automatically put onto SVR, which was not defined in the booklet.
 
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Johnc6

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@bazual Thank you, this opens the question why all those on fixed at that time were not offered Trackers on expiry? This version of the handbook should have the same influence for all fixed rate customers as the flyer did for that cohort.
 

Darn40

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Did pk mention prevailing rates today. I think I read he did in relation to ptsb but did he talk about KBC and their view of prevailing.??
No didn’t hear him mention prevailing rate, but he did say that Kbc still had issues. He mentioned fixed from the start, he also mentioned the flyer and that it says all fixed rate will roll to tracker, that it didn’t say it only applied to new costumers. also mentioned the way Kbc are trying to use the February 08 deadline.
 

gnf_ireland

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Also Padraic kissane says, that the flyer was for all fixed not just new.
As the flyer was sent to brokers only, I would imagine that the best position that can be taken was that anyone who fixed via a broker could claim to be impacted. If the fixing was done directly with the bank, and not via the broker, I am not sure someone would win the argument that they were impacted by it to the FSO - I think you can safely assume KBC would reject the position given their track record.

But if an existing customer used a broker to fix in between the dates in question, then I think they would have a reasonable case to say they were impacted by the flyer.

I am not sure what the bank practice was at the time, but I know my wife had a mortgage via Ulster Bank at the time, and all discussions around rate changes etc was through the broker. She never dealt with UB directly on rates.
 
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