Is my effective marginal tax rate closer to 85%?

It was CGT that I was talking about. There is an inflation allowance, but only up to 2000 or so and there has certainly been significant inflation after that, particularly after the Covid years.
I sold a rental house in September 2008 that I bought in 1997. Those 6 years of indexation caused a significant reduction in my tax bill.

It was Charlie McCreevy who removed indexation in a move to broaden the tax base. By todays standards he seems remarkably responsible and prudent.
 
and have already accumulated enought wealth to leave each of your children €400k,
So the bar has been raised again, not only do I need to support myself but also leave each of the little ones €400k, better hope no surprises appear later on in life ;)
 
However, if I also have sufficient assets where CAT of 33% will ultimately apply to the beneficiaries of my will am I actually paying closer to 85%.

Out of interest, what percentage of this gross pool do you think will be untaxed when it accrues to the beneficiaries e.g. how much arises from PPR gains (likely over 10-15x during a lifetime in Ireland), unrealised capital gains (if you avail of agricultural relief I have zero sympathy!), residual ARFs, tax free allowances etc. The marginal tax rate is largely irrelevant when working out a summary tax position.

If the EFFECTIVE CAT is north of 30%, that’s a win for you (you won at life), the tax payer (we thank you for your hard work) and your beneficiaries (lotto win)!
 
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It was Charlie McCreevy who removed indexation in a move to broaden the tax base. By todays standards he seems remarkably responsible and prudent.
Looking back he does indeed seem sensible and prudent.

Indexation relief was removed during a time of low inflation. Recent years we are well past that. Also, even 2% inflation compounding does create a significant imaginary gain over time. If your asset increases in value by 2% pa, it is not really increasing in value at all, just keeping up with inflation. Yet you will pay CGT on that 'gain' at a very high rate - 33%.

It is the combination of a high rate, a very low exempt amount (again this hasn't increased with inflation) and no indexation allowance which makes CGT so unfair. Imaginary profits are taxed at a high rate.
 
So the bar has been raised again, not only do I need to support myself but also leave each of the little ones €400k
These days you also need to buy them houses so they don't have to suffer the indignity of paying rent, living frugally and saving a number of years for their own homes... Or so it seems reading many of the money makeovers on this site.
 
It is the combination of a high rate, a very low exempt amount (again this hasn't increased with inflation) and no indexation allowance which makes CGT so unfair. Imaginary profits are taxed at a high rate.
Property has increased in value over the last 40 years at twice the rate of inflation.
 
Property has increased in value over the last 40 years at twice the rate of inflation.
So the base line is 100. Inflation has increased that to 150 generally and 200 when it comes to property. As I am paying CGT on a gain of 100, part of the gain which is taxed in still general inflation? I'm not paying tax on 200 - 150. I am paying tax on 200 - 100.
 
So the base line is 100. Inflation has increased that to 150 generally and 200 when it comes to property. As I am paying CGT on a gain of 100, part of the gain which is taxed in still general inflation? I'm not paying tax on 200 - 150. I am paying tax on 200 - 100.
Yea, but you are paying it on unearned income. You pay more than that in earned income.

Property prices have increased by 1188% since September 1980. Inflation over that period was 452%.
 
Yea, but you are paying it on unearned income. You pay more than that in earned income.
Yes, but I am still paying tax on an imaginary gain.

Yes, I would pay more on earned income, but tax on earned income is way too high. A single person loses 47% of any earnings over €44,000. That is penal.
 
Yes, but I am still paying tax on an imaginary gain.

Yes, I would pay more on earned income, but tax on earned income is way too high. A single person loses 47% of any earnings over €44,000. That is penal.
I agree, but I'd prioritise cutting tax on earned income first for both fairness and basic economic reasons.

CAT and CGT receipts are very small each year so I assume few people actually pay any.
 
I agree, but I'd prioritise cutting tax on earned income first for both fairness and basic economic reasons.
I would entirely agree with you on that. It was capital taxes though that were being discussed.

It won't happen. We can barely afford to run the country despite the penal tax rates and the multinational taxes!
 
We can barely afford to run the country despite the penal tax rates and the multinational taxes!
Yes, while there is considerable waste we still behave as if money is the constraint on whatever thing or activity we seek to have more of, when in fact it more often people, processes and bureaucracy and adding more money is just inflationary (of both labour and assets). I think that's where a good deal of our taxes go.

I think that capital taxes properly applied could be deflationary, which in present circumstances is a good thing given that capital values are increasing far faster than labour prices are increasing.

I also don't think our tax rates are penal. They are too high at marginal rates on middle incomes but given that nearly half the workforce pays no income tax and we have massive levels of social transfers the total effective rate on middle income earners is low by Northern European standards. After all most of the squeezed middle get back far more in social transfers than they give in taxes.

My issue is with how narrow the tax base is, how under taxed low income earners are and how reliant we are on three companies, Eli Lilly paid more tax last year than was paid in income tax by a million working people. We'd have a fun time trying to plug that hole and with Boston Scientific already moving their taxable IP abroad the signs aren't good, at least I wouldn't be betting the house on it all staying rosy, but that's exactly what we are doing.

If broadening the tax base is desirable, and it is desirable, then we should be increasing capital taxes, not reducing them.
 
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Yes, while there is considerable waste we still behave as if money is the constraint on whatever thing or activity we seek to have more of, when in fact it more often people, processes and bureaucracy and adding more money is just inflationary (of both labour and assets). I think that's where a good deal of our taxes go.
I would agree with you. In 2016, the Residential Tenancies Board was self funding. Now it is taxpayer funded to the tune of €23 million per year, plus the landlords' funding. An Inspection regime has been added costing €11m per year. It would be very difficult to argue that the additional €33 million has significantly improved tenants' experience. The PRS can't be the only example of this. Every area you look at, you'll likely find similar examples I'd bet.
 
As I haven’t breached the threshold for my pension fund I do get some offset as a result of making pension contributions, but am i in effect paying 85% marginal rate?
I suppose if you leave it all to the State in your will then hypothetically you limit your tax to 52.2% - or 55.2% if you're self employed over €100k

It matters that you don't pay the CAT - your heirs do.
This way of looking at things makes me really queasy, going to take a motilium ;)

Relative to 85%, 65% doesn’t seem too bad.
Always look on the bright side of life!
 
These days you also need to buy them houses so they don't have to suffer the indignity of paying rent, living frugally and saving a number of years for their own homes
Think of it as a windfall tax on the mortgage we took out on their future to bail ourselves out after the Celtic Tiger collapse.
 
The marginal tax rate is largely irrelevant when working out a summary tax position.
I disagree, if I can more easily earn enough to live on or have assets that generate enough income to live on wh6 should I work to generate extra income all of which will be raced at 52% (or in effect a higher rate if you follow my line 0f thinking around inheritance tax)

It’s a disincentive to work from a financial perspective
 
100% If it were me I wouldn't even care about making sure I leave the 400k (or anything)! At that stage of your short life do what makes you happy once you can support yourself imo
I recently heard these two that seem adapt when thinking about inheritance tax

"That dying with loads of money left is not a good sign of financial planning, what's the point of been the rich sucker in the grave yard"

“Your biggest fear ought to be wasting your life and time, not am I going to have lots of money when I reach 80"
 
I don't think they're apt at all, since they don't start from a consideration of the client's situation or objectives. If your objectives include providing for family or dependants — and this is an objective very commonly adopted — then dying with loads of money is on the whole a good outcome.
 
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