Ireland best place in Europe to live and work

[Purple]

No it is not, please provide a source

It's 54.6% of total income tax, 53.8% of all VAT and 62% of all taxes.

Are you suggesting that the top 20% of earners all work for US companies, directly or indirectly?

No, but a good chunk of them do.

This is a nonsense, but explains your wild belief that US companies pay for it all, half of everything, half of the income tax.

See above.

It's clear now that either you didn't read the report or do not understand it.

Ditto.

As explained to you earlier, New Zealand, with a smaller economy, a fraction of US investment finished 1st.

As explained to you earlier half of our economy is reliant on US MNC's.

It has a higher minimum wage than Ireland, but lower average wage than Ireland.

No it doesn't. The minimum wage in New Zealand is 23.50 NZ Dollars which is around €11.60.

The Index covers measurements on statutory annual leave (20 days in Ireland and NZ). This has nothing to do with the presence of US companies. NZ has a fraction of US investment, maybe 10%, of what Ireland gets yet somehow it can provide its workforce the same amount of statutory annual leave days. How can this be? How can they 'pay' for it, or be at No.1 with only a fraction of US investment?

Because excluding MNC investment they have a bigger economy and a higher per capita PPA income.

Maybe its because US investment has nothing to do with statutory annual leave?

Sure, it's been 20 days for decades. Is that factor alone what gets us to the top of the list?

NZ has a higher minimum wage than Ireland, how can this be with only a fraction of the US investment?

That's incorrect. See above.

It also has a universal healthcare system and NZ's work on average one hour less per week than Irish workers.

Yes, we have a really badly run healthcare system. The wasteful and inefficient administrators, nurses and doctors etc can keep behaving like that as long as we keep getting the money from the MNC's to pay for it.

Why not? Would our statutory annual leave reduce? Ditto, Paternity Leave, Maternity leave? These are all Directives from Europe

Of course they would.

Would LGBTQ Inclusivity reduce because US companies leave? Maybe, some, but not all.

Maybe.

Would average working hours per week increase? I doubt it.

No, it would decrease as a much larger proportion of the workforce would be State employees and they work shorter hours because they are mostly women and women work a shorter week than men.

When this country had to inject €60bn into the banking system the subsequent austere measures only reduced the NMW from 8.65 to 7.65 for a short period before being returned again. So if a €60bn hole in public finances can barely dent the NMW, I doubt the loss of US corporate taxes will. Although it may pause any further increases for a period.

That was a once off cost. We raise a little over €100 billion a year in taxes. The MNC's contribute 62% of that. That means we'd have an annual hole of more than the total cost of the bank depositors bailout. Are you still sure?

There is little reason to assume we wouldnt have a universal healthcare system as measured by the Index. We may have longer waiting lists, but the Index doesnt measure that.

We have a universal healthcare system but it would have less than half of the budget it has now. What do you think that would do to outcomes and our ranking?

What about our Global Peace Index ranking? Would that change if US companies left. Probably, but by how much is impossible to tell.

Crime increases with unemployment and economic inequality so lots of people on welfare and welfare cuts... yea, most probably our Global peace index ranking would reduce.
Welfare is the modern equivalent of Bread and Circuses and the taxes generated by the activities of the MNC's pay for that.

 

[Sister Sara]

It's 54.6% of total income tax, 53.8% of all VAT and 62% of all taxes.

Link is broken

The minimum wage in New Zealand is 23.50 NZ Dollars which is around €11.60.

If that's the case, how can NZ with a lower minimum wage, lower average wage, smaller economy, a fraction of US investment, finish first in the Index ahead of Ireland?

Of course they would.

This is just nonsense Purple, now you are saying that if US companies pulled out of Ireland the EU Directives for Annual/Paternity leave etc would reduce?

That means we'd have an annual hole of more than the total cost of the bank depositors bailout. Are you still sure?

Not a 100% sure of course, impossible to tell. I'm not doubting that if US companies withdrew it would be very negative, but it wouldnt necessarily change the law, and the rate of the NMW. I would suggest that the prevalance of employers breaking the law by paying under the NMW would increase from what it is today, but again, the Index doesnt measure that.

 

[Purple]

Link is broken

Fixed now

If that's the case,

Are you disputing that it is the case?

how can NZ with a lower minimum wage, lower average wage, smaller economy, a fraction of US investment, finish first in the Index ahead of Ireland?

I don’t know but if we lost our US investment we’d have a much smaller economy than them.

This is just nonsense Purple, now you are saying that if US companies pulled out of Ireland the EU Directives for Annual/Paternity leave etc would reduce?

I’m saying that If we lost half our tax base we’d implement them differently. The payments would be far lower etc. Do you think they’d remain unchanged? If so how would we pay for them?

Not a 100% sure of course, impossible to tell. I'm not doubting that if US companies withdrew it would be very negative, but it wouldnt necessarily change the law, and the rate of the NMW. I would suggest that the prevalance of employers breaking the law by paying under the NMW would increase from what it is today, but again, the Index doesnt measure that.

Not 100% sure? Really?
Impossible to tell?
It took us more than a decade to recover from the 2008 crash and much of the country still hasn’t recovered; see housing affordability and shortage issues. Now have a good think about it and tell me again if you really think that size of a deficit every year would impact the minimum wage. While you’re at it have a think about what it would do to welfare supports, education, healthcare, unemployment etc.

 

[Sister Sara]

Are you disputing that it is the case?

No. My initial source was incorrect. So NZ with a lower NMW, lower average industrial wage, smaller economy with only a fraction of US investment that Ireland gets, can finish first in the Index ahead of Ireland.

Clearly, the Index does not measure Global-Life balance on the monetary value of those factors which you seem so intent in contending that it does.

I don’t know but if we lost our US investment we’d have a much smaller economy than them.

That is true, but having a smaller economy is not a measurement of the Index as can be discerned that New Zealand has topped the Index, ahead of Ireland, and the US with an economy valued 50 times (estimate) the size of Ireland and NZ combined finishing 59 out of 60.

So the size of the economy is not a factor in measuring the Work-Life balance for the purposes of this Index.

I’m saying that If we lost half our tax base we’d implement them differently. The payments would be far lower etc. Do you think they’d remain unchanged? If so how would we pay for them?

New Zealand has lower minimum wage, average incomes, it still pays 20 days annual leave. Its not the $€ amount that is being measured, it is the number of days. I think you know this now and conveniently skip the example.

Not 100% sure? Really?
Impossible to tell?
It took us more than a decade to recover from the 2008 crash and much of the country still hasn’t recovered; see housing affordability and shortage issues. Now have a good think about it and tell me again if you really think that size of a deficit every year would impact the minimum wage. While you’re at it have a think about what it would do to welfare supports, education, healthcare, unemployment etc.

Well seeing as you brought up the 2008 crash and the period of recovery.

The Irish government ran a fiscal deficit of -14% in 2009 (-€23.5bn) sending the country into bailout territory. It continued to run deficits (albeit reducing) until 2018/2019 to a total fiscal deficit of -€100bn from 2009 to 2018.

Despite this the NMW remained static at €8.65ph except for a 6 month period in 2011 where it went to €7.65 before returning to €8.65ph even as the country was bankrupt. It began to rise in 2016 when the fiscal deficit was still running at -6% or thereabouts. And has continued to rise since then in tandem with Ireland running fiscal surpluses from around 2019.

There is simply no credible correlation between the NMW rate and the economy enduring massive fiscal deficits.
Arguably, if anything, the increases in NMW while the country was still running deficits assisted the economic recovery.

So no, the size of the deficit would not necessarily impact the NMW, and thats based on a factual experience above.

The National Minimum Wage Act, 2000, is not a rate of pay, it is a stand alone piece of legislation upon which hourly rates of pay are not permitted to go below.

US companies do not dictate our NMW, our Annual Leave days, our Public Holildays, Paternity Leave, Maternity leave etc. If they did, we would be a lot closer to them on the Index, probably last.

 

[Sister Sara]

It's 54.6% of total income tax, 53.8% of all VAT and 62% of all taxes.

Thats an article by Cormac Lucey giving his interpretation of the tax figures!

The article comes with a disclaimer: The views expressed in this column published in the June/July 2024 issue of Accountancy Ireland are the author’s own. The views of contributors to Accountancy Ireland may differ from official Institute policies and do not reflect the views of Chartered Accountants Ireland, its Council, its committees, or the editor.

And well it should. He has calculated that 14.2% of the workforce work for MNC's (directly and indirectly) and has decided to categorise all of these workers as being liable to pay 54.60% of total income tax!!

This is just a nonsense.

Yes, US corporations pay well, and above, relative to other employers in the economy but many, many of those workers are still industrial, factory floor workers, middle management and their wages are comparable with other workers employed by large firms.

It is the high-level skillset of US corporations that skews their average wage. But at factory floor level, middle management level, the average wage is between €45 to €70,000 a year. And this applies to nearly 2/3rds of workers employed by US corporations.

Meaning of the 14.2% of the workforce employed by US nationals, 66% of them only pay 40% PAYE from €40k up to €70k.

In total, their entire income tax contribution is about €2.5bn.

It is the 1/3 of highly paid, highly skilled workers that skew the figures but even that will fall way, way short of what Lucey is contending. This is just lazy journalism and accounting and no wonder it comes with a disclaimer.

 

[Purple]

So the size of the economy is not a factor in measuring the Work-Life balance for the purposes of this Index.

With respect discussing this with you is like discussing evolution with a creationist. You are utterly driven by ideology. This is pointless.

 

[Sister Sara]

With respect discussing this with you is like discussing evolution with a creationist. You are utterly driven by ideology. This is pointless.

Why don't you just admit you didnt read the report, or you didnt understand it, or have nothing to back up your assertion that "US companies pay for it all"?

But I'm quite happy to call it quits here.