It's great to see that for the second year in a row we are ranked as the best country in Europe to live and work. A big thank you to all the American companies who pay for it all.
Ireland best place in Europe to live and work
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Sister Sara
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Bizarre comment. Did you read the report?
How so?
Yep; high minimum wage, free healthcare, paid maternity and paternity leave, 10 public holidays, high welfare supports, subsidised childcare etc. How do you think that's all paid for?
Sister Sara
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Because it has no semblance to reality.
US companies contribute a significant investment in this country but to attribute that investment as paying for all the measures highlighted in the report, or anywhere close to it, is bizarre.
It is a slavish comment that I'd expect to hear maybe, from a card-carrying member of the Chinese Communist Party.
Do you not attribute any value to your own endeavors in contributing to the well-being of the country?
Unless you have instituted yourself, everyone and everything else in Ireland, as a US Corporation, then it is a bizarre comment.
Their taxes are the difference between us being at the top of the list in Europe and us being hear the bottom.
I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.
I work in a manufacturing company which provides employment for people in what is a lower socioeconomic area and a lot of immigrants. Our average pay rate is way above the average industrial wage despite a higher than average proportion of our workforce not having third level qualifications.
More than 90% of our business is done with multinationals (both here and ,through the local facilities, abroad). The vast majority of those companies are here because of our taxation system. Without it my company wouldn't exist.
I don't understand your point.
Sister Sara
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Well that does go someway to explaining your view. But outside of your company there is a lot of other stuff going on. There is no doubting the value of US investment and trade but its not as if US Corporations don't get something back in return for their investments. They are not here out of altruism. So whatever they put in, it is not unreasonable to assume they get more back in return.
Taxation rates, Minimum wage, Paternity leave, Public holidays etc are policies of Irish Government and not bestowed to us, or paid for, by US Corporations. If every US Company left in the morning, none of those policies would disappear.
Yeah, they get to siphon earnings from other states through here to avoid the higher tax rates in those countries.
Sister Sara
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That almost sounds like an endorsement for money laundering.
Annual Leave, Paternity Leave, Maternity leave are all as a consequence of EU Directives and nothing to do with US Corporations, the US that itself finished a derisory second-last, 59/60, on the index.
Public Holidays were long in place before US Direct Investment of any significance to this country.
And NZ, with a similar size population, a significantly smaller economy as measured by GDP to Ireland and with only a fraction of the FDI from US compared to Ireland, finished first - how did they pay for it all with only a fraction of US corporate investment?
The index has little to do with US Corporate investment.
No, it's an acknowledgement that we are a parasitic nation.
They are paid for using the stolen taxes.
Yep, we use their taxes to pay for things that they don't have.
Yes, paid for with taxes from an economy heavily reliant on US companies.
They have a far more efficient public sector.
The funding of the things that are on the index have everything to do with US Corporate investment.
The amount of Corporation tax paid by US Multinationals last year accounted for 29% of all taxes paid.
On top of that 65% of all personal taxes paid can also be attributed to the activities of foreign-owned MNCs. Most of those MNC's are American.
Basically nearly half of all the taxes the State receives come from US companies. Now do you think we could fund the services and welfare supports which put us at the top of that list without that money?
losttheplot
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How would Ireland look without US corporate investment. The requirements for Annual Leave, Paternity Leave and Maternity leave have nothing to do with US corporations but they mean very little without a job. Same as being paid for a Public Holiday.
Irelands GDP is distorted, so probably not that best comparison.
Irelands GDP is distorted, so probably not that best comparison.
Sister Sara
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The index that was referenced doesnt measure the unemployment rate as part of its findings. US corporations do not employ the 2,500,000 people or so working in Ireland.
NZ topped the poll. It has about 10% of US direct investment compared to Ireland.
As @Purple has now testified, an efficient public sector can be a significant factor.
Irish Government expenditure as a % of GDP is lower and more efficient than New Zealand.
Whatever metric you use, US companies do not "pay for it all", or anywhere close to it, as was the initial claim. That is not to diminish the value of US investment.
I thin you know better than to use Irish GDP as a measure of anything. That's why in our case modified GNI (GNI*) is used instead.
By what measure do you conclude that Irish Government expenditure is more efficient that New Zealand?
They pay for half of everything. Do you think we'd be at the top of the list if we had half as much money to spend?
Really?
Sister Sara
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Well, if you had just said that at the start instead of,
...I would have just taken it is as a glib, forelock tugging, comment to your US masters.
As you have acknowledged, in the case of New Zealand, an efficient public sector also contributes to the living standards of a nation.
I would also acknowledge the 85% or so of working people who are neither employed directly, or indirectly, from US corporate investments.
EU membership is another factor, and to be honest, the list is probably quite extensive as to why Ireland finished 2nd out of 60, compared to the US itself, that finished 59th out of 60.
A little poetic licence in order to make the point.
Without that US money our economy would be much smaller, our population would be much smaller and our State sector would be much smaller.
Our US masters.
Yes, it's our wasteful and inefficient State Employees and Unions that makes us so reliant on US money. the irony seems to be lost on them.
How do you think all of the State employees we have would remain employed if half of all our tax revenue disappeared?
Do you think that the other non US MNC's would be here if those US companies weren't here
I agree. My point is simply that revenue from US companies pays for the factors that put us at the top of the list.
Sister Sara
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My point is, it contributes to those factors, like the other 85% of workforce, like EU membership and the Directives that impose Paternity, Annual, Maternity leave on member States, like public sector efficiency in say, collecting those taxes - PAYE, VAT, Social Insurance. Like transparency and low-corruption rate, etc...
US companies neither pay for all, nor half, of the living measures in the Index.
As already mentioned, New Zealand, with a smaller economy than Ireland, with a fraction of the investment that Ireland gets from US, finished top!
So simple logic would deduce that there are many, many factors involved along with the contribution of FDI from places like the US.
More than half of the income tax paid in this country is paid by those 15%.
Only the top 20% of earners are net contributors to the exchequer so no, it's not "like the other 85%".
But directives don't pay for it. Given that we'd have to fund a health service and we'd have to fund a police force and we'd have to fund pensions and unemployment benefits first (though at a much lower level) the half of our taxation revenue that comes from US MNC's is what's paying for the rest of the stuff and that's the stuff that gets us at the top of the list.
No, the taxes we generate from them do.
Are you saying that if the US MNC's left and our tax revenue was halved we'd still be finishing second?
Absolutely, but without the taxes generated from the MNC's do you think we'd still place second? Do you think we'd be in the top 10?
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Sister Sara
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No it is not, please provide a source
Are you suggesting that the top 20% of earners all work for US companies, directly or indirectly? This is a nonsense, but explains your wild belief that US companies pay for
It's clear now that either you didn't read the report or do not understand it.
As explained to you earlier, New Zealand, with a smaller economy, a fraction of US investment finished 1st.
It has a higher minimum wage than Ireland, but lower average wage than Ireland.
The Index covers measurements on statutory annual leave (20 days in Ireland and NZ). This has nothing to do with the presence of US companies. NZ has a fraction of US investment, maybe 10%, of what Ireland gets yet somehow it can provide its workforce the same amount of statutory annual leave days. How can this be? How can they 'pay' for it, or be at No.1 with only a fraction of US investment?
Maybe its because US investment has nothing to do with statutory annual leave?
So for clarity. If you are a NZ, paid €2000 for 20 days annual leave as a fork-lift driver in a Kiwi-fruit factory, and I am Irish paid €6000 by a US company for 20 days annual leave, the Index records us equal in terms of the amount of statutory annual leave.
NZ has a higher minimum wage than Ireland, how can this be with only a fraction of the US investment?
It also has a universal healthcare system and NZ's work on average one hour less per week than Irish workers.
Yet NZ, finished 1st!
Why not? Would our statutory annual leave reduce? Ditto, Paternity Leave, Maternity leave? These are all Directives from Europe
Would LGBTQ Inclusivity reduce because US companies leave? Maybe, some, but not all.
Would average working hours per week increase? I doubt it.
When this country had to inject €60bn into the banking system the subsequent austere measures only reduced the NMW from 8.65 to 7.65 for a short period before being returned again. So if a €60bn hole in public finances can barely dent the NMW, I doubt the loss of US corporate taxes will. Although it may pause any further increases for a period.
There is little reason to assume we wouldnt have a universal healthcare system as measured by the Index. We may have longer waiting lists, but the Index doesnt measure that.
What about our Global Peace Index ranking? Would that change if US companies left. Probably, but by how much is impossible to tell.
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And only some of them at that. If they have 2+ children then they may be net recipients.
Sister Sara
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Some of them may even work for Irish businesses.