Increase in State pension age to 67 should be delayed by seven years, report to recommend

Allpartied said:
And there you have the boss mentality.

The guy who completes his tasks in 20 hours is gonna get on just fine.
He'll spend the other 15 hours reading, or watching cat memes on the Internet, or chatting up the secretary in accounts.
He's not gonna tell his boss he's finished everything by Wednesday lunchtime.
Because, well, because of what you said
Click to expand...
yes, it is the boss mentality, but then I'm incentivised to make hard decisions. And in this day and age, with Lean and other approaches to management (and bear in mind, the Irish state even runs Lean courses for the SME sector via your local LEO), do you not think that any competent manager will know this, spot it and take action? Maybe in some areas the person will "get away with it" for a while, but not in an effective and efficient organisation. And if they don't, in time when the incompetent manager gets replaced they'll get a shock.

And if they aren't spotted, and when, in due course, their employer goes bust because staff were only 55% productive and their competitors undercut them, these guys will be the first ones moaning outside the factory gates as to how "terrible and unfair" it all is.
 
Last edited:
kinnjohn said:
It is an area I know very well I worked in costings before I retired from high-end manufacture high margins and wait for it large scale low margin manufacturing of commodity engineering parts, to OEM all over the World including China,
You would not last long manufacturing low margin high volume or low volume low margin items with a mindset that includes the word low skilled in Ireland,
I have seen competitors move to low-cost countries and we wiped them out in a few years all down to their managements mentality of low margins equal low skill,
Click to expand...
I would never, in a million years, consider any company making engineering parts as low skilled. The firms I'm referring to are the likes of Braun (who just assembled parts), Fruit of the Loom and such like who often make low price commodity goods and who have fled out of Ireland in the last 30 years. Even then, they can upskill staff to the required standard in an Asian country easily enough.
 
Peanuts20 said:
I would never, in a million years, consider any company making engineering parts as low skilled. The firms I'm referring to are the likes of Braun (who just assembled parts), Fruit of the Loom and such like who often make low price commodity goods and who have fled out of Ireland in the last 30 years. Even then, they can upskill staff to the required standard in an Asian country easily enough.
Click to expand...
Funny enough I was expecting a reply along these lines,

I will come back to you later with my thoughts on how the PRSI system in Ireland and how the changes to PRSI back in the mid-1980s undermines the chances of people on low wages returning to the workforce on losing their jobs, I will not be near the internet until the weekend I will reply fully then,
 
Last edited:
Peanuts20 said:
yes, it is the boss mentality, but then I'm incentivised to make hard decisions. And in this day and age, with Lean and other approaches to management (and bear in mind, the Irish state even runs Lean courses for the SME sector via your local LEO), do you not think that any competent manager will know this, spot it and take action? Maybe in some areas the person will "get away with it" for a while, but not in an effective and efficient organisation. And if they don't, in time when the incompetent manager gets replaced they'll get a shock.

And if they aren't spotted, and when, in due course, their employer goes bust because staff were only 55% productive and their competitors undercut them, these guys will be the first ones moaning outside the factory gates as to how "terrible and unfair" it all is.
Click to expand...
Of course , that is a typical boss analysis. But it is not what happened.
What happened is the employee, by his own diligence and initiative has worked out how to do the tasks in 18 hours.
He was employed by HR, some data analysts, a recruitment agency, advertisers and a host of middle management flunkeys. All, probably, paid much more than him and, all, undoubtedly, highly coached in Lean management techniques.
They determined that the requisute tasks required 35 hours to complete. The employee is not lazy or unproductive, quite the opposite. But he also knows that revealing his efficiency and focused work, will not help him. It will mean more work, for the same pay. Maybe a marginal increase.
Meanwhile the profit his labour creates will go in to the pockets of the shareholders, or the directors.
That's my point. Surplus wealth is all around us, but it is being hoarded by a smaller and smaller group of people.
We can afford a small state pension for everyone at 65. We've just got to prise it out of the hands of wealthy parasites.
 
Allpartied said:
Of course , that is a typical boss analysis. But it is not what happened.
What happened is the employee, by his own diligence and initiative has worked out how to do the tasks in 18 hours.
He was employed by HR, some data analysts, a recruitment agency, advertisers and a host of middle management flunkeys. All, probably, paid much more than him and, all, undoubtedly, highly coached in Lean management techniques.
They determined that the requisute tasks required 35 hours to complete. The employee is not lazy or unproductive, quite the opposite. But he also knows that revealing his efficiency and focused work, will not help him. It will mean more work, for the same pay. Maybe a marginal increase.
Meanwhile the profit his labour creates will go in to the pockets of the shareholders, or the directors.
That's my point. Surplus wealth is all around us, but it is being hoarded by a smaller and smaller group of people.
We can afford a small state pension for everyone at 65. We've just got to prise it out of the hands of wealthy parasites.
Click to expand...
We are a small open economy who need to be as efficient as possible so we can be survive. The more lean we are the more secure your job is. There are plenty of overseas companies who are only too happy to out price us.

We are too small to think we can control any market. We don't have economies of scale that larger countries have.

It never ceases to amaze me how people think we can dictate trading conditions and expect companies just to accept them.
 
Allpartied said:
Of course , that is a typical boss analysis. But it is not what happened.
What happened is the employee, by his own diligence and initiative has worked out how to do the tasks in 18 hours.
He was employed by HR, some data analysts, a recruitment agency, advertisers and a host of middle management flunkeys. All, probably, paid much more than him and, all, undoubtedly, highly coached in Lean management techniques.
They determined that the requisute tasks required 35 hours to complete. The employee is not lazy or unproductive, quite the opposite. But he also knows that revealing his efficiency and focused work, will not help him. It will mean more work, for the same pay. Maybe a marginal increase.
Meanwhile the profit his labour creates will go in to the pockets of the shareholders, or the directors.
That's my point. Surplus wealth is all around us, but it is being hoarded by a smaller and smaller group of people.
We can afford a small state pension for everyone at 65. We've just got to prise it out of the hands of wealthy parasites.
Click to expand...

Do you really want to spend your entire career in a dead end job doing nothing, not progressing, not taking advantage of a situation to earn more money and gain more wealth.?

As for the profit you create goes into the pockets of shareholders, if it's a quoted company then perhaps you should consider buying shares and joining the club. Or maybe start up your own company and take all the risks associated with that and just sit back and take in the profits earned by the workers. Sounds easy after all.

I fully agree that income equality has widened and the rich have got richer and that there may be opportunities for an increased tax take as a result, if it is done right. But I would also argue that most people in Ireland are wealthier and better off then they were 40 years ago. I'm a returned emigrant, I was one of the generation that left because we had to, not because we wanted to spend 2 years in Australia dossing around. I worked hard and like all of my Irish friends who left at the same time, I was able to come back in the Celtic Tiger era, an opportunity that pervious generations didn't have.

So what's my point? My point is that if you sit on your backside all day at work, doing nothing, you will achieve nothing in life. If you make an effort and get off your rear end then you will be better off instead of feeling bitter about those who are.
 
Peanuts20 said:
Do you really want to spend your entire career in a dead end job doing nothing, not progressing, not taking advantage of a situation to earn more money and gain more wealth.?

As for the profit you create goes into the pockets of shareholders, if it's a quoted company then perhaps you should consider buying shares and joining the club. Or maybe start up your own company and take all the risks associated with that and just sit back and take in the profits earned by the workers. Sounds easy after all.

I fully agree that income equality has widened and the rich have got richer and that there may be opportunities for an increased tax take as a result, if it is done right. But I would also argue that most people in Ireland are wealthier and better off then they were 40 years ago. I'm a returned emigrant, I was one of the generation that left because we had to, not because we wanted to spend 2 years in Australia dossing around. I worked hard and like all of my Irish friends who left at the same time, I was able to come back in the Celtic Tiger era, an opportunity that pervious generations didn't have.

So what's my point? My point is that if you sit on your backside all day at work, doing nothing, you will achieve nothing in life. If you make an effort and get off your rear end then you will be better off instead of feeling bitter about those who are.
Click to expand...
I'm all in favour of rewarding hard work. Which is why, at the end of 45 years of daily grind, people should be allowed a few years of relaxation. 65 is old. Pretty soon chronic illnesses will be upon us, then our ship will be waiting for us. The one dragging behind it , a great birdless silence.

We'd all love to be successful businessmen, telling everyone what to do, dossing around the golf course, every Friday afternoon, but let's get real.
Most people work for a living, often a paycheck to paycheck existence.
Pay the rent, pay the bills, bring up the kids, have a pint or two, watch a match, a couple of weeks in Torremelinos.
Is it really beyond our means to allow low paid workers a short, modest, dignified pension.
 
The problem is that it isn't "short".

The average duration of retirement has been increasing, thanks to rising life expectancy.

Thus, the ratio of the length of retirement to employment has been increasing.


Mind you, if somebody has 45 years contributions, I would agree with giving them the SPC at age 65.
 
I really dont get this obsession with getting the full 40 years PRSI stamps.
Is it really worth another 10 years slaving away, just to get 50 EUR more per week on the state pension?
Most people should have private pension arrangements, or maybe I am mixing in an elitist group.
 
fistophobia said:
I really dont get this obsession with getting the full 40 years PRSI stamps.
Is it really worth another 10 years slaving away, just to get 50 EUR more per week on the state pension?
Most people should have private pension arrangements, or maybe I am mixing in an elitist group.
Click to expand...
you may not realize the problem with the Government raising the pension age is directly connected with your statement above,

I was actually waiting for someone to open this can of worms, the people in the know are keeping the lid on this one for a long time

The Government never closed off any of the loopholes that are draining the PRSI Fund dry and yet went ahead with increasing the pension age on people who had paid into the pension fund for 50 or close to 50 years,

you don't realize the can of worms you just opened up,

It is the one question I ask close friends of mine when I hear them on raise the pension age because we cannot afford to leave it at 65, but can afford to pay it to others after six or seven years contribution,

In every case so far they see nothing wrong with getting a full pension after 10 contributions on reaching pension age after 10 years of straight contributions or credits or voluntary contributions of 500 euros a year was 250 euro up until a few years ago,

you already posted a link above on Leo having a problem with increasing the amount above 4% of payroll for some people yet has no problem increasing the age on people who see 14.75% at present was 18.75 % before the TROIKA arrived,

if Leo does not change his ways the two Simons will be the least of FG worries come to next General Election, the main political parties loss of support can be traced to wanting to hold on to there old Toxic cozy cartels,
 
Last edited:
Allpartied said:
I'm all in favour of rewarding hard work. Which is why, at the end of 45 years of daily grind, people should be allowed a few years of relaxation. 65 is old. Pretty soon chronic illnesses will be upon us, then our ship will be waiting for us. The one dragging behind it , a great birdless silence.

We'd all love to be successful businessmen, telling everyone what to do, dossing around the golf course, every Friday afternoon, but let's get real.
Most people work for a living, often a paycheck to paycheck existence.
Pay the rent, pay the bills, bring up the kids, have a pint or two, watch a match, a couple of weeks in Torremelinos.
Is it really beyond our means to allow low paid workers a short, modest, dignified pension.
Click to expand...
Average life expectancy in Ireland is 81.5 years, so it is not that short a period. Some will shuffle off earlier but many are living far far longer and whilst Covid will cause a blip in those numbers I fully expect they will continue to go north as the years pass. My Dad worked hard for 50 years, physical work and retired at 65 and lived another 22 years.

So the question is, if you want to retire at 65, are you prepared to pay for it. ? It comes at a cost, either increased taxes or increased payments into your own private pension. Someone, somewhere, has to cough up the hard cold cash for that pension.
 
Peanuts20 said:
Average life expectancy in Ireland is 81.5 years, so it is not that short a period. Some will shuffle off earlier but many are living far far longer and whilst Covid will cause a blip in those numbers I fully expect they will continue to go north as the years pass. My Dad worked hard for 50 years, physical work and retired at 65 and lived another 22 years.

So the question is, if you want to retire at 65, are you prepared to pay for it. ? It comes at a cost, either increased taxes or increased payments into your own private pension. Someone, somewhere, has to cough up the hard cold cash for that pension.
Click to expand...
Should it be changed to how many years you have worked before you reach retirement age, like your dad,
I worked and paid PRSI for close 47 years I retired several years before contributory pension age I can tell you raising of the pension age was a big factor in my decision to retire before reaching the contributory pension age
If I had my time again and going by the bigotry posted on this site I am sorry I did not go a lot earlier and cash in my PRSI chips if you get my drift,

If someone started work at 16 they would have paid PRSI for 50 years by the time they reach 65 years,
if someone started work at 25 they would have paid PRSI for 50 years by the time they reach 75 Years,
If someone started work at 30 they would have paid PRSI for 50 years by the time they reach 80 Years.

Life expectancy might have gone up but I get the feeling the people working and paid PRSI for 50 years will fall into bad health long before people who got the state pension having contributed only 25 years before the state pension kicks in,
 
Last edited:
While no system is perfect, basing it on years has other issues around part time work. I have a year or two early on where I have full prsi stamps but paid almost no prsi as the hours were low. It feels wrong to count those the same as later years where the prsi payments are multiple times higher.
 
ryaner said:
While no system is perfect, basing it on years has other issues around part time work. I have a year or two early on where I have full prsi stamps but paid almost no prsi as the hours were low. It feels wrong to count those the same as later years where the prsi payments are multiple times higher.
Click to expand...
I am very well aware of the issue, The Irish PRSI system from an employee and self-employed has lots of loopholes that the government are aware of but never addressed,
For the Irish social security system to be fair to both direct employees and the self-employed we have no choice but to follow a system as they have in Austria where you get 80% of your average working life pay capped around let us say 55K I do not have the actual figure,

One of the advantages is it draws in low paid workers into the Employment pool, this has a big knock-on effect on the amount of
housing needed to support the economy of Austria,

Not picking on them the likes of Dunnes stores Employ lots of part-time workers I think on 18 hr weekly contracts again not up to date on the actual part-time hrs worked,
 
ryaner said:
While no system is perfect, basing it on years has other issues around part time work. I have a year or two early on where I have full prsi stamps but paid almost no prsi as the hours were low. It feels wrong to count those the same as later years where the prsi payments are multiple times higher.
Click to expand...
The issue I have is we went after increasing age and never reformed the system,
 
noproblem said:
Interesting piece on pensions and age related finance on Newstalk just now at 9.45am.
Click to expand...
have you got a link I am traveling and out walking all day so will not be near the internet until late tonight,

I suspect it is people who will be retired long before contributory pension age telling others it is not for you but it is ok for me,
 
Thought it was informative and the expert made a good point of the earlier you start one the better it is, ls there a case for auto enrolment from birth and a small state contribution made at that stage.
 
Saving more cannot fix the dependency ratio problem.

Either productivity dramatically increases, or living standards do the opposite.

All ageing countries are in a lot of trouble.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top