Impact of more liberal UK Bankrupcy laws on SME's and small creditors.

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Artemis

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Nobody wanta to see any SME shafted by people not paying their bills, and this is not why many of us consider bankruptcy. In facr it is the SME sector that is most exposed by the property crash. Most of us used property as a vehicle for a future pension.

The problem is the unwillinginess of banks and government to accept everybody is going to lose money due to the collapse of property prices, but only by a shared responsibility can we minimise the loss. The individual has already lost all of their money in failed property investments. The issue now is how much of the bank's money going to be lost.

On a personal level, the bank loaned me over 1 million when I was on a salary of 30K. In hindsight, I admit I borrowed recklessly but the bank and the regulator accept no responsibility for the current mess.

When I am ready to go bankrupt in the UK, I will contact the bank and offer to pay 100K over 5 years as a settlement to closure on the matter but I expect the bank will refuse this and force me to choose the UK bankruptch option.

Property assets have crashed by 50% to 80%, yet there has been no meaningful solutions proposed by banks and government. We are still in a state of denial and UK Bankruptcy is the only option at the moment.

The current mortgage crisis has caused more damage to famlies of this generation than clerical abuse has done to the last generation. Just like we now ask how could government and society turn a blind eye and let this happen, the next generation will ask why did the people behave like sheep? We seem to only know the difference between right and wrong with the benfit of hindsight, long after the damage has been done.
 
Artemis said:
The current mortgage crisis has caused more damage to famlies of this generation than clerical abuse has done to the last generation.
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Somehow i feel i'd rather be shafted by a bank and that's not being glib about the situation
 
seantheman said:
Somehow i feel i'd rather be shafted by a bank and that's not being glib about the situation
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Not glib, simply realitic. Have considered other options sonce 2009. Bankruptcy is a last resort.

However, if you have an alternative solution, tens of thousands of us would love to hear it.
 
Artemis said:
we now ask how could government and society turn a blind eye and let this happen, the next generation will ask why did the people behave like sheep? We seem to only know the difference between right and wrong with the benfit of hindsight, long after the damage has been done.
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A well written and accurate post.
 
seantheman said:
Is the seemingly bankrupcy on demand Uk System the type of setup we would like to aspire to?
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My view is that what we have now is not working. So without the government bringing in a proper modern bankruptcy system people have to go the UK route. We need those that were productive to become productive again. We do not need people to spend the next 30 or 40 years under stress, committing suicide and bringing this country deeper into depression from recession. It benefits no one.
 
Bronte said:
On another thread perhaps.
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What a superb idea ! A thread of listings of Banking mistakes of lending offering or trying to lend money to persons. Personally I could fill a book having been in the scope of personal Banking mistakes, errors and fraud.
 
Artemis said:
On a personal level, the bank loaned me over 1 million when I was on a salary of 30K. In hindsight, I admit I borrowed recklessly but the bank and the regulator accept no responsibility for the current mess.
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Unless there were significant other assets not mentioned here backing the loan(s) then hindsight is not necessary to recognise this as reckless borrowing (and lending).
 
ClubMan said:
Unless there were significant other assets not mentioned here backing the loan(s) then hindsight is not necessary to recognise this as reckless borrowing (and lending).
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??? In very many cases it wasn't reckless borrowing it was reckless lending. Only recently I saw an instance where a person was loaned millions to invest in a Financial Product with the Product only taken as security, and when the person went to encash recently, the Bank refused to allow him as there is a shortfall in the value of the product versus the outstanding loan balance.
 
mercman said:
???
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I don't understand the "???" ... How can anybody think that borrowing €1M on an income of €30K is NOT reckless borrowing? Not saying that the lender is not at fault here as well but it takes two to tango.
 
Maybe -- but that was the order of the day. Banks were literally throwing money at people like confetti. Some took it without offering security and others didn't. Whilst it may take two to Tango, in the main the Banks caused the problem and wish to instill immense pain to a nation of people who in reality knew no better other than to accept the misgivings of others.
 
"where a person was loaned millions "

This sounds as if the person involved made no decision - i.e. did not borrow of their own free will but "was loaned". Was the person compelled/forced/obliged to borrow or is it their view that, as a borrower, they have no responsibility to make a decision on whether or not to borrow?

And when you are talking "millions" as above, I think we are a long way away from the innocent consumer/naive youth or MVS ( I like this - it's Purples- the Most Vulnerable in Society!) - its actually a big commercial decision, made presumably by someone who knew what they were doing.


mf
 
"Banks were literally throwing money at people like confetti!"

No. Just don't get that one. No-one makes you borrow.

"in the main the Banks caused the problem and wish to instill immense pain to a nation of people who in reality knew no better other than to accept the misgivings of others. "

Really? We knew no better than to accept the misgivings of others? No, don't get that one, either.

No-one makes you borrow.

mf
 
mf1, as a previous poster said it is about making people who were once productive, productive again. Sitting on your hands and saying tough luck to the ordinary joe, but bailing out banks and developers is why we are in the mess and the problem is getting worse. 50% of society now worries about how to pay bills and 20% of people fear losing their home. We need to bring solutions with problems to the table.

If we force the "once productive people" to move to the UK or suffer on here, we will be left with the civil service and Social Welface recipients, with nobody to pay for it. If that is allowed to happen the current mess will be just the warm up.

If we follow you logic why dont we scrap social welfare and support for the sick, drug addicts, ect. After all they should/could have done thinks different and therefore have only themselves to blame.

This is a societal issue, it is now about the common good. And those of you who are smug about you being ok, are fooling yourself. If you are in the public sector you need SME's/enterprise to pay your wages. If you work for a private company, the entrepneur running that needs to get rid of his/her property headaches to reinvest, grow the business, keep you employed or give you a pay increase.

The proof is in the pudding. Smugness and saying your problem, not mine is a false economy. It is clearly not working.

How many of you who are smug, took to the streets about the billions poured into Anglo? NAMA, Foreign Unsecured Bond Holders? A fraction of this money would solve the issue for all the rest of society.

Irish solutions to Irish problems. Sure it'll be grand and it's not my problem, I'm grand. I never took a risk in my life but I expect an eduction, health system, job,social welfare if I lose my job, road network ect. However it is enterprise, risk takers who pay for it all.

You will want to solve the issue when your perfect world is affected, but at that stage, it will be too late. However, no doubt you will then complain about what should/could have been done to help job creators who were drowning with property loans.

We all nead to wake up, share the pain, tell banks, government, unsecured bondholders to get real, and take the pain now and move on.

It does not require a greater hit for the tax payer. It simply requires us to use the money differently.

The VAT, PAYE, PRSI, Capital Gains taxes collected in the boom could solve the problem, but unfortunately its spent, so instead we use the national pension reserve to pay foreign unsecured bond holders.

History will laugh at our stupidity.
 
Artemia, MF1 was not being smug, don't get your point? His point I think was that people who borrowed recklessly should acknowledge that.

It would be interesting to hear your story though. I'd love to know how you got 1 million on a salary of 30K.
 
Can we just avoid the "smug" word please? Its unneccessary and only makes the discussion personalised and off topic.

aj
modertor
 
Use of word Smug was nor directed at any poster specifically. Simply pointing out that those who think we can ignore the mortgage crisis without consequences for society are not being realistic.

Yes I and others borrowed recklessly, but for that to happen, banks had to lend recklessly. Borrowers acknowledge this but banks, government, courts, ECB to not acknowledge this reality.

In terms of how I borrowed 1.1 million, I did not submit false documents. I submitted an application and it was treated as "commercial" so the bank could ignore guidelines and issue the loan. They have since doubled their margin on the Euroibar rate which is a large part of my problem.
 
Bronte - regarding how one got loans from banks so easily ..

I wanted a loan of 250k six years ago to convert an old building into apts. Bank mngr said that may not be enough to do a good job, why not borrow 300 ? ER, that's kind, thank you I said.
Look, to be sure ,to be sure , nick, make it 400k- you know what builders's quotes are like....
I was amazed and said -But I may have trouble re-paying that.
No worries, we'll make it interest only for three years, and when the building's complete you can start paying it off. And it'll all be on tracker...

The problem is, I said, I've got my eyes on an overseas investment and..
The bank mngr cut me short. "get to the point,Nick how much do you need?"

To cut a long story short the bank that day lent me 400k euros,plus 400k dollars.
My income was earnings from an increasingly profitless small travel agency and my only security was my home plus the old building I was converting.

that's about 700.000 euros thrown at me.in a 30 minutes chat. Of course I took it. And I was silly. Not so much for taking the money but for investing it in property that has crashed here and in florida.
I'm repaying the loan as it as my fault for taking it. And for being greedy and over ambitious. And because I have never ever not paid every cent of anything I've owed.

But I'm not quite sure how the bosses of these banks were so well rewarded (and still are on their amazing pay-offs and pensions) for, basically, using German/French banks' money and throwing at idiots like me.
And ,of course, I'm annoyed at not only repaying my own loans but ,like all of us, paying off the unpaid loans of bigger borrowers than me.
 
Artemis said:
Not glib, simply realitic. Have considered other options sonce 2009. Bankruptcy is a last resort.

However, if you have an alternative solution, tens of thousands of us would love to hear it.
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Dont think you quite got my drift here. I meant I wasn't being glib(not you).
You seem to insinuate in opening post that the rape of children was a lesser evil than a bank manager lending €1m to someone on a €30k salary
 
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