He / She / They must have a very long term goal because rumour has it Satoshi controls about a million bitcoins and hasn't moved them for years.
If Bitcoin was worth $1 each in 2011, why are they worth $12,000 each now?
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Duke of Marmalade
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No I don't believe that it was planned as a fraud. I also don't think the founders had any idea at all that this would happen. One of the first transactions was 10,000 BTC for two pizzas - that's over 100 million euro in today's money, hardly the act of someone who plotted this all along. It is the culture itself which is the fraud with its talk of mining and images of BTC looking remarkably like gold coins and with vicious bubble feedback loops as the prices make silly jumps. It also thrives on Shortie Syndrome - the belief that all existing monetary arrangements are themselves a fraud.
Professor Moriarty himself couldn't have planned this fraud.
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TheBigShort
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Just some obs on various comments.
Perhaps. Anything backed by nothing other than public confidence, enforced by over-arching authority, is pretty much fundamentalist. Be it a fiat currency, a religious doctrine or even an economic doctrine.
This is an underlying factor in the surge of bitcoin price. Whilst wealthy corporations and individuals are ploughing trillions of printed money into property, stocks, bonds, antiques, vintage cars and paintings, reinforcing the 'value' of what they owe, those of us who cannot access the plentiful pickings of QE (until of course it trickles down - or crumbs from the top table!) have found another way to protect their own interests without being exposed to the folly of the centralised command banking economy.
The technology is, apparently, broadly accepted across a spectrum of intellects. Whether it manifests itself in bitcoin only, other crypto currencies or some other form remains to be seen.
Bitcoin however, has stolen a march on potential alternatives. This in itself could be hugely significant.
Perhaps. Anything backed by nothing other than public confidence, enforced by over-arching authority, is pretty much fundamentalist. Be it a fiat currency, a religious doctrine or even an economic doctrine.
This is an underlying factor in the surge of bitcoin price. Whilst wealthy corporations and individuals are ploughing trillions of printed money into property, stocks, bonds, antiques, vintage cars and paintings, reinforcing the 'value' of what they owe, those of us who cannot access the plentiful pickings of QE (until of course it trickles down - or crumbs from the top table!) have found another way to protect their own interests without being exposed to the folly of the centralised command banking economy.
The technology is, apparently, broadly accepted across a spectrum of intellects. Whether it manifests itself in bitcoin only, other crypto currencies or some other form remains to be seen.
Bitcoin however, has stolen a march on potential alternatives. This in itself could be hugely significant.
And here again it shows that either you do not know economics, or you do not understand it or you just ignore them.
The US Dollar is not only backed by believe in it and by the US government but also by the US economy and the ability of the US government to tax each and every citizen (worldwide even) and economic activities.
Nonsense - the surge is because every tabloid is writing about it and taxidrivers are talking about it..
Everyone wants to get rich fast and without much/any effort. Bitcoin is offering this possibility till the moment some says that the emperor has no clothes on.
Every simpleton can have nowadays a share account and properties are also popular... via Linkedfinance and Mintos you can even create your own loan book...
Properties and shares have an underlying value as you get returns in form of rent or dividends, loans provide interest...
Bitcoins create nothing of value.
Brendan Burgess
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Fully agree with that analysis.
TheBigShort
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Just some more obs...
I never suggested that world governments are plotting to destroy the world, but what I do believe is that in a manner of each protecting what they believe to be their own self-interests, the world is on a collision course for economic and environmental disaster.
I don't believe all monetary systems themselves are fraudulent. I do however believe they are susceptible to fraud. And currently the levels of fraud are on a grandiose scale never witnessed before. Perpetuated by centralised commverand banking system, facilitated by subservient governments, tolerated by passive populations.
To an extent yes, but I think the media are behind the curve here. I first heard of bitcoin at €80. I didn't buy any until it was €2,500, around six months ago. From €80 to €2,500, would expect shouts of 'bubble'. It was barely in the news aside from some business page articles.
How do i open a legally held tax avoiding bank account in Panama?
I never suggested that world governments are plotting to destroy the world, but what I do believe is that in a manner of each protecting what they believe to be their own self-interests, the world is on a collision course for economic and environmental disaster.
I don't believe all monetary systems themselves are fraudulent. I do however believe they are susceptible to fraud. And currently the levels of fraud are on a grandiose scale never witnessed before. Perpetuated by centralised commverand banking system, facilitated by subservient governments, tolerated by passive populations.
To an extent yes, but I think the media are behind the curve here. I first heard of bitcoin at €80. I didn't buy any until it was €2,500, around six months ago. From €80 to €2,500, would expect shouts of 'bubble'. It was barely in the news aside from some business page articles.
How do i open a legally held tax avoiding bank account in Panama?
Perhaps everyone of us privileged simpletons, that live in a first world country.
What about the billions of unbanked and underbanked?
There are uses for cryptocurrencies that we don't appreciate because we have them for granted.
I don't even know where to start with all the things I could reply to on this thread, but on the subject of Satoshi, it's actually interesting how muted his announcement of bitcoin and subsequent posts about it were. For those curious, the paper was first announced with this email on a cryptography mailing list https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg09959.html Everything he ever said is archived here: http://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/
I'm more impressed bitcoin got from 0 to 1, than 1 to 15k, and it almost got abandoned in the early days. The book Digital Gold by Nathaniel Popper is very good read about the whole story of the origin and early years of bitcoin if anyone is interested.
Satoshi didn't really go for the hard sell or hype bitcoin up much, famously once replying to someone with "If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry."
And then hilariously in his last email he ever sent anyone in April 2011, he simply said "I have moved on to other things.”
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Duke of Marmalade
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So you are getting insurance against a particular event. That event is that everything goes "poof" but BTC survives. That would seem even more unlikely than NK winning the next war - why don't you have a little stash of NK currency to insure against that possibility?
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Brendan Burgess
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Hi Ant
Don't mind the Duke's maths - although the North Korean suggestion is a good one.
There is no diversification in buying something which has no value.
Brendan
Duke of Marmalade
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I have removed the math reference.
B
BreadKettle
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That makes no sense whatsoever and seems to show how little you know of what you're talking about.
Why would the value per individual btc have any effect whatsoever on it's use case for anything?
That is simple to answer really.
I don't believe in North Korea.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Even a single country betraying the trust of its citizens by devaluing the currency, seizing some of the citizens money or placing capital controls on access to money or payment services is enough to make people consider and desire alternatives. These things are not some fantastical events, they've all happened already in recent history.
Maybe you get a place like Ukraine where there's instability due to pro-Russian separatists, people aren't sure if they can access their money, or if they'll be able to get across a border with it. Are you confident there won't be corrupt soldiers or police looking to pocket that gold watch on your wrist at the airport?
Oh what have we here: Three Ukrainian MPs – Oleksandr Urbansky, Dmitry Belotserkovets and Dmitry Golubov – turned out to be the owners of a vast amount of bitcoins:
Whether BTC is in a bubble or not is one thing. However, decentralised cryptocurrencies are here to stay regardless of how this pans out. Its akin to the development of the internet. Applications are being developed on top of crypto platforms. The crypto's themselves are being improved on an ongoing basis.
In the first few years, the talk was simply of their use by criminals, terrorists, pedo's etc. All of these guys use cash - should we ban cash? HSBC were found to be complicit in offering a bespoke service to the cartels in their laundering of USD. Bitcoin has come through that nonsense. Now its being suggested that its a ponzi scheme....or that blockchain is ok (provided its centralised and controlled by big banking) but bitcoin is not.
I get the argument of it having no intrinsic value. The same could be said of the usd - although i accept that it has a history. Like it or loathe it, crypto (it may not end up being bitcoin - OR - it may be bitcoin for certain uses and other crypto's for others) is here to stay.
In the first few years, the talk was simply of their use by criminals, terrorists, pedo's etc. All of these guys use cash - should we ban cash? HSBC were found to be complicit in offering a bespoke service to the cartels in their laundering of USD. Bitcoin has come through that nonsense. Now its being suggested that its a ponzi scheme....or that blockchain is ok (provided its centralised and controlled by big banking) but bitcoin is not.
I get the argument of it having no intrinsic value. The same could be said of the usd - although i accept that it has a history. Like it or loathe it, crypto (it may not end up being bitcoin - OR - it may be bitcoin for certain uses and other crypto's for others) is here to stay.
Brendan Burgess
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Hi tecate
Cryptocurrencies may well be here to stay. They may well have a useful and legitimate function.
But Bitcoin is worthless or as close to worthless as makes no difference.
Brendan
Cryptocurrencies may well be here to stay. They may well have a useful and legitimate function.
But Bitcoin is worthless or as close to worthless as makes no difference.
Brendan
TheBigShort
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Brendan has been as cold as a polar ice cap on this subject.
I detect climate change.
Keep pushing lads I think he’s starting to bend....I sense a chink in the armour!!
Ok, so Bitcoin - has no redeeming features whatsoever? Do you acknowledge at least the upside of the decentralised nature of it? Do you acknowledge the benefit that it cant be tampered with by central banks and that it has a finite quantity? Do you acknowledge the role it plays in countries in turmoil eg. Venezuela. Do you acknowledge the potential it has in terms of social inclusion of the billions of 'unbanked' citizens on the planet.
Do you not see it's potential in terms of remittance payments?
Do you not see it's potential in terms of cross border payments?
I say potential as clearly there are currently stumbling blocks in that respect. However, with lightening network on the way, that will be resolved.
Ethereum is being championed as the best fit potentially for smart contracting solutions. However, bitcoin still has potential in this respect too.
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