If alcohol disappeared overnight, the courts could close down - discuss.

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deanpark

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President of the District Court Paul Kelly quoted in the Irish Times at the weekend.

"If alcohol disappeared overnight, the courts could close down,” he says. “It’s an absolute scourge. It cuts across almost the entire range of offences; it’s behind most public order, assaults and criminal damage, it’s probably behind 80 per cent of family law, has a huge impact in childcare and, obviously, there’s drunk driving...."

I thoroughly agree but in the absence of this utopia there should be massive ramping up to discourage/ deter booze consumption in future generations.
 
deanpark said:
President of the District Court Paul Kelly quoted in the Irish Times at the weekend.

"If alcohol disappeared overnight, the courts could close down,” he says. “It’s an absolute scourge. It cuts across almost the entire range of offences; it’s behind most public order, assaults and criminal damage, it’s probably behind 80 per cent of family law, has a huge impact in childcare and, obviously, there’s drunk driving...."

I thoroughly agree but in the absence of this utopia there should be massive ramping up to discourage/ deter booze consumption in future generations.
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Paul would be out of a job though, has he thought about that?

How about decriminalising drug possession, thereby decriminalising addiction, and divert the millions that is spent on legal aid, providing an income for Pauls mates, towards something which is actually useful like rehabilitation?

Instead of making stupid comments like "If alcohol disappeared overnight, the courts could close down,” why doesn't he actually propose something useful, something that it is actually possible?
 
The courts could close down?

What about all the cases that dont involve alcohol? Are they not going to be crimes anymore?

What about car break ins, muggings, house break ins, drugs offences, speeding, parking offences etc etc

That just shows the level of 'thought' behind this.

Bunch of guys get into trouble on the way home from the pub. How much of it is really down to alcohol versus different groups colliding at night.
Does he imagine people will sit at home like monks without alcohol?

Has he considered one of the reasons sometimes drunks are brought before him is that they get caught and a sober or semisober person would be cleverer about it and not get caught... same crime committed.

Or that the courts seem to treat alcohol as a mitigating factor instead of clamping down on the actual offences and letting responsible people enjoy alcohol without being nanny stated.

Alcohol consumption has been dropping for decades. Have the courts seen a corresponding drop?
 
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odyssey06 said:
What about car break ins, muggings, house break ins, drugs offences, speeding, parking offences etc etc
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Alcohol is a drug, the most commonly abused drug of all, as I keep pointing out. It is illegal to sell alcohol to an intoxicated consumer. When was the first time you heard of a server or publican being prosecuted for this?
 
mathepac said:
Alcohol is a drug, the most commonly abused drug of all, as I keep pointing out. It is illegal to sell alcohol to an intoxicated consumer. When was the first time you heard of a server or publican being prosecuted for this?
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This didnt seem to start a trend...

Not sure what penalty was dished out subsequently.

m.independent.ie

Six publicans to be charged for allowing drunkenness

SIX publicans are facing prosecution for allowing customers to be drunk on their premises.
m.independent.ie m.independent.ie
 
The point the judge is making is that alcohol is at the core of most criminality and the human misery it causes. That's a valid point and he's to be applauded for it. AAM lay "experts" having a moan at him are missing the point either deliberately or through not understanding the awful impact of alcohol on society.
 
deanpark said:
The point the judge is making is that alcohol is at the core of most criminality and the human misery it causes. That's a valid point and he's to be applauded for it. AAM lay "experts" having a moan at him are missing the point either deliberately or through not understanding the awful impact of alcohol on society.
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At the core of most criminality?

Rubbish.

Its probably not even 'at the core' of most of the incidents ... alcohol caused and alcohol related are not the same thing.

Can we close the courts then and we dont need to prosecute drugs offences, break ins, organised crime, vehicle thefts and all the other offences that have nothing to do with alcohol?

He says we can close the courts.
So whats his plan for all those crimes?

He is the expert after all. He says we can close the courts right?

So what happens a sober person who speeds? Or hits someone! Or steals?

Court is closed?

Hardly an expert comment is it which gives me no confidence in the rest of his observations 'from authority'.
 
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mathepac said:
Alcohol is a drug, the most commonly abused drug of all, as I keep pointing out. It is illegal to sell alcohol to an intoxicated consumer. When was the first time you heard of a server or publican being prosecuted for this?
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Seven prosecutions from almost exactly 17 years ago!! That took some searching and as the vintners' chief whinger points in summary "the poor put upon publicans" for whom keeping the licensing laws is a step too far, sob, sob. They're still whining today now that they're open again.

I agree though that we need to change the use of intoxication as a mitigating factor by defence counsel. Judges would be doing their jobs if they used intoxication as an aggravating factor. If someone cannot "drink like a Christian" and hold their drink as they used to say, then that should be barred from public houses and/or consuming alcohol. Who knows what damage would be prevented or how many lives might be saved? Why not try it in some district court areas as a trial over two or three years?
 
Irish people's relationship with alcohol is just one symptom of a fundamentally immature society-there are multiple others such as putting people doing their job on ridiculous pedestals, the furore over the now-abandoned RIC commemoration, embedded insincerity.
 
odyssey06 said:
Its probably not even 'at the core' of most of the incidents ... alcohol caused and alcohol related are not the same thing.
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Just to point out that the COVID pandemic rules record deaths that occur within 28 days of a positive test as COVID deaths. What's sauce for the goose must surely also be sauce for the gander. Alcohol caused and alcohol related have alcohol in common.
 
mathepac said:
Addiction is not a criminal offence, never was.
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Possession of drugs to feed your addiction is, so in effect addiction to drugs is a criminal offence.
If the Gardaí stop someone with benzo diazepines, alcohol and grass they can arrest them for possession of the only one of those things that doesn't cause violence, the only one that is illegal. If someone is a drug user they are criminalised by virtue of their addiction. It's an extension of that whole 'War on Drugs' nonsense.
 
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mathepac said:
Just to point out that the COVID pandemic rules record deaths that occur within 28 days of a positive test as COVID deaths. What's sauce for the goose must surely also be sauce for the gander. Alcohol caused and alcohol related have alcohol in common.
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They may have worked within 28 days also. Would that make it a work related incident?
 
We have a problem with alcohol in this country. We've been obsessed with the pub opening hours as a society over the last couple of weeks. I know when I pick up the local paper this week, a lot of the court cases will have drink at their core. It won't be 80%, but it will be a lot

it'll be interesting to see if Minimum unit pricing will have an impact but probably more is needed. Should we raise the minimum age, or perhaps raise the minimum age to buy in an offie?. Should barring orders for domestic violence also include a barring from every pub and offie in the country? If we can enfore Covid certs, could that be enforced?. Having sat in A&E on a Friday night with an elderly parent in the past, the number of people out of their heads on drink (and that's often the patients relatives/friends) is crazy

We need, as a society, to drink less. How do we achieve that is the question?
 
Peanuts20 said:
We have a problem with alcohol in this country. We've been obsessed with the pub opening hours as a society over the last couple of weeks. I know when I pick up the local paper this week, a lot of the court cases will have drink at their core. It won't be 80%, but it will be a lot

it'll be interesting to see if Minimum unit pricing will have an impact but probably more is needed. Should we raise the minimum age, or perhaps raise the minimum age to buy in an offie?. Should barring orders for domestic violence also include a barring from every pub and offie in the country? If we can enfore Covid certs, could that be enforced?. Having sat in A&E on a Friday night with an elderly parent in the past, the number of people out of their heads on drink (and that's often the patients relatives/friends) is crazy

We need, as a society, to drink less. How do we achieve that is the question?
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We are drinking less though - are the problems you mentioned increasing or decreasing?

The A&Es were quiet when pubs were closed because of covid. It's not total alcohol consumption causing the issues you describe, it's where and when and all of it happening on a saturday night.

I don't think increasing the age like that would help, because there will be someone over 21 who can get stuff for them.
Maybe we should be going the other way, and letting 16 and 17 year olds have beer or wine in a pub but no spirits. I think this might be the situation in some EU countries but not 100% sure. So it's there, take it or leave it, get used to it slowly - rather than this illicit thing people go 'mad' for.
 
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Peanuts20 said:
We have a problem with alcohol in this country. We've been obsessed with the pub opening hours as a society over the last couple of weeks. I know when I pick up the local paper this week, a lot of the court cases will have drink at their core. It won't be 80%, but it will be a lot

it'll be interesting to see if Minimum unit pricing will have an impact but probably more is needed. Should we raise the minimum age, or perhaps raise the minimum age to buy in an offie?. Should barring orders for domestic violence also include a barring from every pub and offie in the country? If we can enfore Covid certs, could that be enforced?. Having sat in A&E on a Friday night with an elderly parent in the past, the number of people out of their heads on drink (and that's often the patients relatives/friends) is crazy

We need, as a society, to drink less. How do we achieve that is the question?
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Most of the repeat serious offenders suffer from alcoholism even if they don't accept that which is a disease. Minimum pricing or higher minimum age will do nothing to counter that.

Drunken behaviour I would suggest is a much bigger factor for A&E departments than the Courts. Gardai tend not to arrest people for drunken behaviour unless it crosses a serious threshold. And most people who do not have a problem with alcohol would probably be so mortified that it would never happen again.

Every Country suffers from these problems. Alcohol is the leading cause of hospitalisations in France and leads to tens of thousands of deaths every year. Alcohol is a drug. I enjoy a few pints and I enjoy wine but I am under no illusions that alcohol is good for me. I am under no illusions that I am fortunate that for whatever reason, I am not addicted to it either.

Once we have alcohol, we will have alcoholics and people who abuse it. Once we have drugs including legal drugs, we will have drug addicts and people who will abuse them. Once we have gambling, we will have gambling addicts and people who can't stop.

There is no Government policy that will stop that.
 
Sunny said:
Gardai tend not to arrest people for drunken behaviour unless it crosses a serious threshold.
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I think this is an important point. We have a very small prison population and a relatively lenient court system. On balance I think that's a good thing. I'd hate to see us ending up like America where 0.7 people per 100 (around 1 in every 100 adults) is in prison and 2.8% of the adult population is either locked up or on parole or probation.
We have a problem with addiction. Let's treat the addiction. I think limiting the sale of alcohol to off licences would be a good idea. The same for tobacco; it should only be sold in specialist tobacconists. Both are far too freely available.
 
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