Future price of Irish properties

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walk2dewater said:
Conservative estimates put 333b barrels of oil in the canadian tar sands, vs. say 285b in all of Saudi. The issue is tar sands oil is profitable only at oil prices north of US$35/bbl. And 333b is very conservative, no one has a clue

Whilst there may be more potential oil in Canada's Athabasca tar sands than Saudi Arabia's oil reserves (themselves probably overstated) the problem with the tar sands is getting the oil out. It is essentially a mining process taking about 1-2 tonnes of the tar sands to produce a single barrel of oil.

The three main disadvantages with producing oil from the tar sands are:
1. It requires LOTS of natural gas to heat the water mixed into the sands to separate the tar from the sands.
2. HUGE amounts of water is required for this process.
3. It is environmentally VERY destructive.

As North American gas rises in price (and it will!) it will also push up the price threshold at which mining and processing the tar sands into oil becomes profitable.

At the moment the tar sands produce about 1 million barrels of oil per day. Sounds a lot, but the world produces 80+ million barrels of oil a day. At best the maximum production from the tar sands will be 3-5 million barrels per day and that 5-15 years in the future by which time depletion of conventional oil will probably be far greater than the maximum production available from the tar sands.

Tar sands are held up by some as the panacea to offset conventional oil depletion but the truth is they won't in any meaningful timeframe and when the time comes when production of oil from tar sands exceeds production of conventional oil the world's economy will have long since tanked.

I'm not discounting the tar sands as an investment though... many people have high hopes they will bridge the energy divide and this may sustain them until such time when it becomes obvious that production cannot be ramped up enough to do this.


walk2dewater said:
Anyway, werent we talking about house prices?

Back to the business at hand ;)
 
"[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Arial]One million immigrants to fuel boom for 15 years[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial][/FONT]Report predicts 5m population,6pc annual growth and 3m cars

Brendan Keenan
Group Business Editor
A MILLION immigrants over the next 15 years could swell the population to more than five million by 2020 and keep the economy and the housing market booming.
The foreign-born population is probably at 400,000 already, and makes up one in eight of the workforce.
In a major new long-term forecast, NCB Stockbrokers say the fastest-growing sectors of the economy will be the savings industry, hotels and restaurants, cars and computers as Ireland's baby boomers reach prime earning and spending age from now to 2020.
The optimistic outlook emerges from a new analysis of the population on which NCB's economists worked with the Central Statistics Office.
Among the findings are:
The population will grow by almost a third and immigrants could make up one in five of residents by 2020.
The number of cars on the road will almost double to 3m. An extra 700,000 dwellings will be needed to house the expanding population of working age.
The Irish economy will far outstrip the rest of the EU, with the potential to grow by more than 5pc a year over the period.
"Ireland's labour force structure is radically different from the rest of the EU," said NCB chief economist Dermot O'Brien.
"Theirs is going to decline over the next 40 years, and at an accelerating pace, while ours continues to increase."
The report argues that better economic prospects in Ireland will draw in more immigrants, and this in turn will spur faster growth.
"We expect immigration to account for half the population growth between now and 2020," said NCB economist Eunan King.
The new analysis challenges the perception that most immigrants are employed in building or semi-skilled areas like meat processing.
Instead, the biggest proportion are working in professional jobs. Less than 10pc of unskilled workers are foreign-born, compared with 15pc of professionals.
"The immigrants coming here have more third-level qualifications than the Irish-born population," Mr King said. "That is adding to the productivity of the economy. But there is no doubt the numbers we are forecasting will have significant implications for all aspects of society."
The present immigrant population is made up more of family units than single people, the research finds.
The average size of an immigrant household is just under three people - not much different from that of the Irish-born population. Only in Dublin and Cork cities did the report find a significantly larger number of single-person households.
Based on their forecasts, NCB see continued strong demand for housing. Over 40pc of the 100,000 immigrant households in 2002 were in rented accommodation. But 34pc were buying on a mortgage, which was not much less than the 38pc of Irish families.
Forecasts
"We expect the demand for housing to be about 65,000 units per year until 2015, then slowing to 55,000 a year until 2020," Mr O'Brien said.
He sees no reason for house prices to fall, although prices should slow to the same rate as incomes - 5pc to 7pc a year - if the market is to stabilise.
"I do not see what could threaten the housing market.
"The eurozone cannot support interest rates much above 4pc so there is no danger there.
"We have already seen the resilience of the Irish economy after the global downturn in 2001, when employment just kept on growing."
Even if immigration slowed to zero, the country will need more than 40,000 new houses a year.
And the growth in population of working age means the number of cars on the road will rise by at least 600,000, and probably by 1.5 million, the report says."



Another attempt to talk up the economy using immigration as the saviour of everything. Why hasn't any other country taught of this all you have to do is have very high immigration and the economy booms. Ireland is such a clever little country to have discovered this. I especially like the this piece

"
The new analysis challenges the perception that most immigrants are employed in building or semi-skilled areas like meat processing.
Instead, the biggest proportion are working in professional jobs. Less than 10pc of unskilled workers are foreign-born, compared with 15pc of professionals. "

Rather than saying what proportion of immigrants is working in unskilled compared to skilled jobs which would show up the truth that the vast majority are working in unskilled areas. The statistics are turned around to show the immigrants percentage of the total workforce working in skilled and unskilled areas. There are far more workers in ireland working in unskilled jobs than in the professions. So 10% of unskilled workers is going to be a much higher figure than 15% of professionals. This is another example of using statistics to mislead people.
 
The property market was dealt with on the Dunphy show just now. Didn't get to catch it all as I had to get into work but it didn't sound like the typical Irish media analysis of the property market. I expect to hear a few auctioneers in the short term waxing on about the bouyancy of the market. They basically rubbished the NCB report as well.
 
bearishbull said:
wait till the chinese fully float their currency ,it will rise and we will be importing inflation from there and our currencies may be negatively affected by strengthening yuan.wonder when will international investors start buying the yuan as a reserve currency....

This could actually be Irelands long term salvation if a meltdown occurs, 'importing inflation' can also be termed increased competitiveness and lead to a scenario where we actually start to manufacture something here in Ireland again.
 
According to the European Forecasting Network the ECB will raise rates by about 0.5% by the middle of next year and will rise further again after that. This means the rate will likely be 3.25% by end 2007 assuming a 0.25% rise every 6 months. It will be interesting to see how the ECB proceed in the next 6 months then and whether they raise the rate sooner. If the economic rebound in the Eurozone continues it would not be unrealistic to see a 0.25% every 3 months (as they have done already in Dec and Mar) instead of every 6 months giving a rate of 4% by end 2007.

 
ivuernis said:
According to the European Forecasting Network the ECB will raise rates by about 0.5% by the middle of next year
That does seem a conservative estimate - and would leave the ECB lagging significantly behind the FED rate for quite a while - I'm not sure I see that happening.

At the other end of the scale some of the estimates are a 0.75% raise before end 2006.
 
ivuernis said:
According to the European Forecasting Network the ECB will raise rates by about 0.5% by the middle of next year and will rise further again after that. This means the rate will likely be 3.25% by end 2007 assuming a 0.25% rise every 6 months. It will be interesting to see how the ECB proceed in the next 6 months then and whether they raise the rate sooner. If the economic rebound in the Eurozone continues it would not be unrealistic to see a 0.25% every 3 months (as they have done already in Dec and Mar) instead of every 6 months giving a rate of 4% by end 2007.


Read what the ECB are saying in their March bulletin (linked posted above). I'd prefer that as my basis for rates expectations not the guys at the EFN.
 
joe sod said:
"[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Arial]One million immigrants to fuel boom for 15 years[/FONT]Report predicts 5m population,6pc annual growth and 3m cars

Brendan Keenan
Group Business Editor
A MILLION immigrants over the next 15 years could swell the population to more than five million by 2020 and keep the economy and the housing market booming.
The foreign-born population is probably at 400,000 already, and makes up one in eight of the workforce.
In a major new long-term forecast, NCB Stockbrokers say the fastest-growing sectors of the economy will be the savings industry, hotels and restaurants, cars and computers as Ireland's baby boomers reach prime earning and spending age from now to 2020.
The optimistic outlook emerges from a new analysis of the population on which NCB's economists worked with the Central Statistics Office.
Among the findings are:
The population will grow by almost a third and immigrants could make up one in five of residents by 2020.
The number of cars on the road will almost double to 3m. An extra 700,000 dwellings will be needed to house the expanding population of working age.
The Irish economy will far outstrip the rest of the EU, with the potential to grow by more than 5pc a year over the period.
"Ireland's labour force structure is radically different from the rest of the EU," said NCB chief economist Dermot O'Brien.
"Theirs is going to decline over the next 40 years, and at an accelerating pace, while ours continues to increase."
The report argues that better economic prospects in Ireland will draw in more immigrants, and this in turn will spur faster growth.
"We expect immigration to account for half the population growth between now and 2020," said NCB economist Eunan King.
The new analysis challenges the perception that most immigrants are employed in building or semi-skilled areas like meat processing.
Instead, the biggest proportion are working in professional jobs. Less than 10pc of unskilled workers are foreign-born, compared with 15pc of professionals.
"The immigrants coming here have more third-level qualifications than the Irish-born population," Mr King said. "That is adding to the productivity of the economy. But there is no doubt the numbers we are forecasting will have significant implications for all aspects of society."
The present immigrant population is made up more of family units than single people, the research finds.
The average size of an immigrant household is just under three people - not much different from that of the Irish-born population. Only in Dublin and Cork cities did the report find a significantly larger number of single-person households.
Based on their forecasts, NCB see continued strong demand for housing. Over 40pc of the 100,000 immigrant households in 2002 were in rented accommodation. But 34pc were buying on a mortgage, which was not much less than the 38pc of Irish families.
Forecasts
"We expect the demand for housing to be about 65,000 units per year until 2015, then slowing to 55,000 a year until 2020," Mr O'Brien said.
He sees no reason for house prices to fall, although prices should slow to the same rate as incomes - 5pc to 7pc a year - if the market is to stabilise.
"I do not see what could threaten the housing market.
"The eurozone cannot support interest rates much above 4pc so there is no danger there.
"We have already seen the resilience of the Irish economy after the global downturn in 2001, when employment just kept on growing."
Even if immigration slowed to zero, the country will need more than 40,000 new houses a year.
And the growth in population of working age means the number of cars on the road will rise by at least 600,000, and probably by 1.5 million, the report says."



Another attempt to talk up the economy using immigration as the saviour of everything. Why hasn't any other country taught of this all you have to do is have very high immigration and the economy booms. Ireland is such a clever little country to have discovered this. I especially like the this piece

"
The new analysis challenges the perception that most immigrants are employed in building or semi-skilled areas like meat processing.
Instead, the biggest proportion are working in professional jobs. Less than 10pc of unskilled workers are foreign-born, compared with 15pc of professionals. "

Rather than saying what proportion of immigrants is working in unskilled compared to skilled jobs which would show up the truth that the vast majority are working in unskilled areas. The statistics are turned around to show the immigrants percentage of the total workforce working in skilled and unskilled areas. There are far more workers in ireland working in unskilled jobs than in the professions. So 10% of unskilled workers is going to be a much higher figure than 15% of professionals. This is another example of using statistics to mislead people.
about a day or two late there mate! have you been readin this thread or what?
 
I'm 24, finished college last year and went straight into a good, stable job starting on approx 25K pa (Your average grad wage).

I'm currently renting in a 1 bed in Rathfarnham in a decent apartment and it's a nice area. Looking at myhome.ie the apartment could be valued at between €330K and €370K ( probably leaning towards €370K).

Now, if I was to purchase this apartment for €340K on a 25 year mortgage at 3.7% it would cost me a little over €1,700 pm. ( according to http://www.jeacle.ie/mortgage/ie/ )
Currently rentals are costing me about €950 pm. (Think it's a bit much at that too.)
When my landlord bought this place in the late '90's he paid around £50K for it. If he asked me to put in a bid for it tomorrow, I could honestly say the most I would offer for it would be €170K.
€170K at the rates specified above would leave me with a mortgage of roughly €870 pm. To me, this would be value for my money.

I think the market's terrible in terms of value for money.
And for those of you who might say "you see it this way because you're on the outside looking in as a FTB"! I can see both sides as my parents have been fortunate enough to buy at the right time ( late '90's & early '00's) and reap the rewards of capital gains and rental income.

I've made my mind up, now the real thing that interests me is what can I do while I wait for the property market to correct itself?
 
walk2dewater said:
Read what the ECB are saying in their March bulletin (linked posted above). I'd prefer that as my basis for rates expectations not the guys at the EFN.

I agree, I think the EFN predictions are definitely on the conservative side.

However, people listening to this will at first be a little worried when then hear interest rates are going to rise, but then we they hear the actual prediction of 0.5% by middle of 2007 they'll quickly revert and the mania will continue for another while.
 
ivuernis said:
According to the European Forecasting Network the ECB will raise rates by about 0.5% by the middle of next year and will rise further again after that. This means the rate will likely be 3.25% by end 2007 assuming a 0.25% rise every 6 months. It will be interesting to see how the ECB proceed in the next 6 months then and whether they raise the rate sooner. If the economic rebound in the Eurozone continues it would not be unrealistic to see a 0.25% every 3 months (as they have done already in Dec and Mar) instead of every 6 months giving a rate of 4% by end 2007.


If this is true - the EFN's view is for much less aggressive hikes than other commentators have postulated - then I would imagine that any softness in the Irish market is going to come from BTL stress with IO mortgages, not from individual mortgage holders.

An increase from 2% base Nov-05 to 4% base end-07 would see the cost of a €500K loan (as an example covering say 2 BTL properties) rise from €1300pcm to about €2150pcm.

The impact on a repayment mortgage is lower due to the "cushioning effect" of paying down the capital (for the same amount it rises from 2500 to about 3000). Providing employment remains stable and there is no further stress in the system, that should be bearable for most.

So the future of the market (imho) depends on the ability of the BTL brigade to service these loans and their appetite to hold onto empty property because capital appreciation is a one-way bet.

Question is - what %age of the market do they represent?
 
ixus said:
I've made my mind up, now the real thing that interests me is what can I do while I wait for the property market to correct itself?

If you have any debt get that paid off first and foremost and then aim to stay debt-free. If you don't need a car don't be tempted to get one, waste of money if you can get by without one. Rent one on occasion if you need to. Read and learn as much as you can on global economics and markets and where things might be headed. Don't get suckered by quick-buck investment advertisements. Save as much as you can afford to, invest it wisely! Don't put it into anything risky! Something secure with a reasonable rate of return. Maybe a small percentage (5-10% in gold) as an insurance bet. As your salary increases you might then be in a position to diversify a bit more.

Enjoy your 20's, have fun and prepare for your 30's!

 
Neffa said:
Question is - what %age of the market do they represent?

Well if you have a look at the other forum categories - Mortgages, Investments - There seem to be an awfull lot of homeowners trying to do the 'smart' thing of holding onto their old property when they move house. In effect becoming accidental BTL investors, and so ending up with really massive mortgages. I'd have said these people were taking inappropriate risks.
 
Neffa said:
So the future of the market (imho) depends on the ability of the BTL brigade to service these loans and their appetite to hold onto empty property because capital appreciation is a one-way bet.

At some stage a proportion of the BTL brigade will decide to cut and run. I would if I was in that position, highly leveraged and banking on capital appreciation.

The question is will something like this combined with interest rates rising a little bit faster than anticipated cause sufficient numbers of BTL's to sell that prices begin to reflect this by either stagnating or dropping a small amount? If nothing else, it would be very interesting to see the psychological effect of this on the market given the continual growth we've become used to and expected over the last 10 years.
 
ivuernis said:
At some stage a proportion of the BTL brigade will decide to cut and run. I would if I was in that position, highly leveraged and banking on capital appreciation.

I think it'll be much harder to predict what'll happen with the BTL brigade simply because so many are new to investing in general and are what I would call 'accidental investors'. How many Eircom 'investors' lost their shirt because they didn't sell when the stock was up 25%, whilst all the pros made a killing.

Have you ever played poker with people who don't really know what they're doing?

Conventional wisdom just goes out the window.
 
Howitzer said:
Have you ever played poker with people who don't really know what they're doing?

That's a nice analogy. I'd add, playing poker with borrowed money and the expectation that "in the long-run" the right cards always show up :)
 
Well judging by the Rental Yields thread not many professional landlords would buy anything in Dublin at the moment (bar S23, S50, which are completely different), whilst anyone who has 50K in equity on their existing property thinks it's the only game in town. I know who's opinion I'd listen to.
 
i wonder if a lot of FTB's are/have entered the market earlier than they would normally do as "i wont be able to afford it if i wait" ,so buying at 26 rather than at 30,in UK the average age of a FTB is 33 ,i'd say its far lower in ireland.
Maybe the stress testing the banks claim to do will will now cause a drop in FTB's ,with base rates heading for 4% by 2008 equalling mortgage rates of around 5.25% banks should be stress testing with mortgage rates +2% by middle/late 2007.how many FTB's would be able to afford a mortgage with a stress test rate of 7.25% ??
 
ivuernis said:
Read and learn as much as you can on global economics and markets and where things might be headed.

This is probably my main aim at the moment. Have started by reading Sunday Business sections, Financial Times, askaboutmoney, www.thisismoney.com , a bit of Investopedia and CNBC. A small start, but a start nonetheless. also, I read economy sector reviews on different sectors.

Would appreciate any pointers / books / links other people have found interesting / informative.

Also, would like to see more discussion on this board like what W2DW has introduced in the more recent posts on this topic.

Apologies for straying off topic.
 
Howitzer said:
Have you ever played poker with people who don't really know what they're doing?

When playing poker, if you don't know who the sucker is, IT'S YOU !
 
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