Farmer Nally

[markowitzman]

Feel very sorry for this man. 6 years in prison. Thug plagued him for ages and the farmer finally lost it. Despite my sadness for him a custodial sentence I feel was warranted (as he reloaded and shot him in the back as he left the property) but 6 years is steep. He will have an awful time in prison as he is a marked man. RTE coverage of the aftermath it must be said is not that balanced. They should have had someone from the traveller community (if they would come on) on the late late show. Also Prime Time next week has interview. Hope they have more balance compared to Late Late.

 

[delgirl]

I too feel sorry for this farmer and would have liked to have seen a suspended sentence rather than a custodial one in light of the circumstances leading up to the shooting.

IMO, the law is biased in favour of criminals where law abiding people in their own homes are required to calibrate the extent of the menace before being allowed to defend their loved ones and property.

 

[brodiebabe]

IMO, the law is biased in favour of criminals where law abiding people in their own homes are required to calibrate the extent of the menace before being allowed to defend their loved ones and property.

I don't know of any law abiding people who have murdered someone.

 

[Murt10]

Going back maybe 10 -15 years ago wasn't there a bunch of travellers who went round the Country attacking robbing and tieing up old people living in isolated areas on their own.

If Mr Nally read about these at the time, he may have assumed that he was dealing with the same people. Also hadn't the dead traveller a conviction for assault with a slash hook and he was due in Court for a similar assault on a garda.

If I were in the same position as Mr Nally I don't think I would have reacted any differently.



Murt

 

[delgirl]

Going back maybe 10 -15 years ago wasn't there a bunch of travellers who went round the Country attacking robbing and tieing up old people living in isolated areas on their own.

On Monday, Mr Nally spoke of an incident where two brothers living about eight miles from him were brutally assaulted and one of them died. He had this uppermost in his mind when he saw the two men on his property and feared for his own life.

 

[tomthumb]

My sympathies lie completely with Mr. Nally. The terror and fear in his heart that day would have blinded him and logic and calm went out the window. If he had called the Guards they probably wouldn't have arrived for ages so what had he to do except defend himself and his property. In that awful situation when you feel so threatened I can imagine how the mind would go blank and this terrible incident take place. A suspended sentence would have be fair IMO. As Murt10 rightly says the elderly have a huge fear of travellers arriving at their isolated farms and robbing and beating them up from past incidents. That fear led to this fellows life being taken so those who caused that fear have a huge responsibility for the incident with Mr. Nally and that seems not to have counted? God help Mr. Nally.

 

[ajapale]

My sympathies lie with Judge who had a very difficult case to try.

I for one am glad the we have an independant judiciary. The alternative is that we have mob law or trial by "Prime Time" or worse the "Irish Sun".

ajapale

 

[Brendan Burgess]

It's a tough one.

I feel sorry for people living in isolated areas who have been the victims of crime and whose neighbours have been the victims of crime.

If I came back to my home and found someone around the back where he shouldn't be, I would see little point in calling the police.

But, he was tried by a jury who heard all the evidence. They didn't just read the papers. They probably shared the same sympathies and prejudices which we have for the farmer. But, having heard all the evidence, they did find him guilty of manslaughter. I think we have to leave it up to them.

The judge had to sentence him for the crime for which he was convicted. I feel sorry for the farmer, and I don't feel sorry for the guy he killed given his record, but what could the judge do? Not impose a custodial sentence?

It's very tough.

Brendan

 

[shnaek]

The only thing to be done to help this situation is to introduce severe sentences for those caught robbing elderly people living in the country side. Alas this won't happen. I only read in the paper today about the 3 month sentences for the lads who put that librarian in a coma. Bloody disgraceful. When a criminal in this country does a cost-benefit analysis of robbing/mugging/attacking someone only an idiot would think the odds weren't in their favour.

 

[RainyDay]

The only thing to be done to help this situation is to introduce severe sentences for those caught robbing elderly people living in the country side.

Whilst my heart wouldn't disagree, my head wonders if there is any evidence that longer sentences actually serve as a deterrent.

 

[CCOVICH]

Also, is robbing elderly folk necessarliy a worse crime than robbing anyone else?

And I dunno if the average criminal is conversant enough in finance/economics/whatever to conduct a cost-benefit analysis.

 

[delgirl]

Whilst my heart wouldn't disagree, my head wonders if there is any evidence that longer sentences actually serve as a deterrent.

Maybe not longer sentences, but perhaps if people had the right to defend themselves in their homes to whatever degree they felt necessary this would be a sufficient deterrent to most/some burglars? I don't know how a burglar thinks, but if I thought I might be seriously injured or shot while entering someone's home, I'd think twice about doing it.

We lived in South Africa in the 80's when it wasn't against the law to shoot an intruder. Yes, it was during the apartheid years and yes, most of the intruders were black. I understand that the law there has now changed and the number of buglaries has soared as the criminals no longer fear being shot.

 

[ClubMan]

I don't know of any law abiding people who have murdered someone.

Just to be clear - in this case the person involved was convicted of manslaughter and not murder.

but perhaps if people had the right to defend themselves in their homes to whatever degree they felt necessary this would be a sufficient deterrent to most/some burglars?

Would that include shooting the intruder a second time in the back after he had fled having already been shot once and severely beaten?

It might also be pertinent to note that the person convicted in this case has accepted that there was no option but for him to receive a custodial sentence.

 

[delgirl]

Would that include shooting the intruder a second time in the back after he had fled having already been shot once and severely beaten?

"Sgt Carroll agreed with defence barrister Mr Brendan Grehan SC, that Mr Nally had been living in fear after being robbed and unwelcome strangers had come to his house.

Sgt Carroll agreed with Mr Grehan SC that Mr Nally was "out of his mind with fear" on the day of the fatal shooting.

The court heard that Mr Nally used to record the registration numbers of cars coming to his farmhouse and would throw a bucket of water on soil at his gate in order to record footprints or tyre prints of anyone who would call while he was not at home.

Mr Nally’s next door neighbour, Mr Michael Varley told defence barrister Mr Michael Bowman BL that he has known Mr Nally "all his life".

He said Mr Nally’s door was "always open to his neighbours".

Mr Varley said he noticed a change in Mr Nally from 2003 after he had been broken into and again in February 2004.

From then on, he said, Mr Nally wouldn’t stay long away from his farm and became pre-occupied with maintaining a presence at his farm.

Psychologist Dr John P. Bogue told the court that after he assessed Mr Nally he concluded that he was "quite a sincere and forthcoming man".

He said Mr Nally had been suffering from stress in the weeks before the fatal shooting.

"He was pre-occupied with intruders coming to his farm", Dr Bogue said.

He said Mr Nally was "coping quite poorly" with the stress. Dr Bogue said Mr Nally had entertained thoughts of self-harm before the incident."

This was essentially a good, law-abiding man. Who can say how any of us would have reacted under such stress?

The fact remains that but for Mr Ward's own actions, he would have been alive today.

 

[RainyDay]

We lived in South Africa in the 80's when it wasn't against the law to shoot an intruder. Yes, it was during the apartheid years and yes, most of the intruders were black. I understand that the law there has now changed and the number of buglaries has soared as the criminals no longer fear being shot.

The statistics shown don't show any 'soaring' - There was in 2002/2003, but it did drop back for the most recent year recorded. There is an overall trend of a gradual increase, but certainly nothing that I would describe as 'soaring'.

I have little confidence that the average burglar gives serious consideration to the outcome of their actions, regardless of what kind of responses are legally permitted.

 

[ClubMan]

Sgt Carroll agreed with Mr Grehan SC that Mr Nally was "out of his mind with fear" on the day of the fatal shooting.

Is Sgt. Carroll a trained psychiatrist/psychologist?

This was essentially a good, law-abiding man. Who can say how any of us would have reacted under such stress?

Be that as it may, and I'm sure that all of us have it within us to kill somebody else, but that doesn't mitigate the seriousness of the crime that occurs when somebody kills another.

The fact remains that but for Mr Ward's own actions, he would have been alive today.

I think it's more pertinent to state that but for Mr Nally's actions Mr Ward would be alive today.

 

[extopia]

We lived in South Africa in the 80's when it wasn't against the law to shoot an intruder.

I don't believe we have anything to learn here in Ireland from the enlightened policies of the South African government during the apartheid years.

I think this was a tough case and I believe Mr. Nally feared for his life. But he killed a man. The media played on the fact that the victim was a Traveller as if this had anything to do with it. Unless it's more OK to shoot Travellers than it is to shoot non Travellers? The media could just as easily have portrayed Mr. Ward as a "father of 11" or some such term.

Listening to "trial by Liveline" was sickening - all those anti-Traveller people phoning Joe Duffy baying for blood. Nally, to his credit, agrees that he did wrong and seems prepared to meet the consequences.

A lot of lives ruined, as is usually the case when someone snaps and takes the law into his or her own hands.

 

[Observer]

It's a tough one.

...............................
But, he was tried by a jury who heard all the evidence. They didn't just read the papers. They probably shared the same sympathies and prejudices which we have for the farmer. But, having heard all the evidence, they did find him guilty of manslaughter. I think we have to leave it up to them.

....................................It's very tough.

Brendan

Actually, that's not quite true. The judge DIRECTED the jury not to acquit him. They were given a choice of a murder or manslaughter verdict but they were not allowed to acquit.

I find this to be the strangest aspect of this sad case. And I didn't think judges could actually do this. Certainly judges can and do direct juries to acquit (when the case warrants it) but, as an interested layman, I've never before heard of a judge ordering a jury to convict, and I didn't even think it was allowed. Could one of our legally qualified contributors perhaps shed some light?

For the record my sympathies are entirely with Mr Nally rather than with the deceased.

 

[delgirl]

I think it's more pertinent to state that but for Mr Nally's actions Mr Ward would be alive today.

Why is it more pertinant? Surely if Mr Ward hadn't been there in the first place, doing whatever it was he was doing, Mr Nally wouldn't have had anyone to shoot?

The statistics shown don't show any 'soaring' - There was in 2002/2003, but it did drop back for the most recent year recorded. There is an overall trend of a gradual increase, but certainly nothing that I would describe as 'soaring'.

The statistics you quote begin in 1994 - as I said, we lived there in the 80's - from 1983 to 1986.

 

[extopia]

Shame on you delgirl! Hardly qualifies you to have a balanced view on the Nally case, given that you chose to live in one of the most prejudiced societies in recent history.