EV Vs ICE Issues: Range

[Baby boomer]

I appreciate the honest account from @Slim that pulls no punches. All too often one gets the evangelical pitch from EV owners about how great it is, etc etc.
I have to say though that that trip back from the airport sounds like an absolute nightmare. It's the sort of thing that takes the joy and pleasure out of motoring and turns it into a chore. My ten year old diesel can reach any point on this island and back, twice, without refuelling. Range anxiety will stop being a thing only when you can stop having to plan your journey. Admittedly, EV technology improves year by year, but until range hits a reliable, say, 500km with plentiful fast recharging points, and price falls in line with ICE equivalent sized and specced models, I'm not buying. I would also be concerned at the thought of sinking a premium price into a fast evolving technology that will probably have better and cheaper offerings in a matter of a few years.

EVs are undoubtedly the way of the future. The advantages are truly enormous in terms of engineering simplicity and variable running cost. But price, arghhh! And range! Right now, for me, and I'm sure many others, they just don't cut the mustard. I might consider a cheap secondhand model as a second family car, but we need one workhorse that does everything, all the time, without having to think about it.

 

[Blackrock1]

I appreciate the honest account from @Slim that pulls no punches. All too often one gets the evangelical pitch from EV owners about how great it is, etc etc.
I have to say though that that trip back from the airport sounds like an absolute nightmare. It's the sort of thing that takes the joy and pleasure out of motoring and turns it into a chore. My ten year old diesel can reach any point on this island and back, twice, without refuelling. Range anxiety will stop being a thing only when you can stop having to plan your journey. Admittedly, EV technology improves year by year, but until range hits a reliable, say, 500km with plentiful fast recharging points, and price falls in line with ICE equivalent sized and specced models, I'm not buying. I would also be concerned at the thought of sinking a premium price into a fast evolving technology that will probably have better and cheaper offerings in a matter of a few years.

EVs are undoubtedly the way of the future. The advantages are truly enormous in terms of engineering simplicity and variable running cost. But price, arghhh! And range! Right now, for me, and I'm sure many others, they just don't cut the mustard. I might consider a cheap secondhand model as a second family car, but we need one workhorse that does everything, all the time, without having to think about it.

i think you are missing the point here, if you have decided that an EV isnt for you fine, but its clear here that the issues could easily have been avoided and probably wont happen again now that @Slim is better equipped to mitigate against this in the future.

Unless you need to reach any point on the island and back without refuelling then its a moot point for most people.

If there was an i dont like EV bingo you would have hit most of them

 

[Alkers86]

I appreciate the honest account from @Slim that pulls no punches. All too often one gets the evangelical pitch from EV owners about how great it is, etc etc.
I have to say though that that trip back from the airport sounds like an absolute nightmare. It's the sort of thing that takes the joy and pleasure out of motoring and turns it into a chore. My ten year old diesel can reach any point on this island and back, twice, without refuelling. Range anxiety will stop being a thing only when you can stop having to plan your journey. Admittedly, EV technology improves year by year, but until range hits a reliable, say, 500km with plentiful fast recharging points, and price falls in line with ICE equivalent sized and specced models, I'm not buying. I would also be concerned at the thought of sinking a premium price into a fast evolving technology that will probably have better and cheaper offerings in a matter of a few years.

EVs are undoubtedly the way of the future. The advantages are truly enormous in terms of engineering simplicity and variable running cost. But price, arghhh! And range! Right now, for me, and I'm sure many others, they just don't cut the mustard. I might consider a cheap secondhand model as a second family car, but we need one workhorse that does everything, all the time, without having to think about it.

The 500km range is only worthwhile if you regularly make such journeys. There's no point in paying mega bucks for a 100kWh battery and then the longest trip you ever do is 100km and once a year you drive to the airport and back. The extra cost you've spent on such a big battery for that one trip a year would be appalling when you do the math. You could get yourself a 50kWh battery car with 200km range and rent a limo every year for the airport trip and still save money.

If you regularly travel 500km in one trip you are in the minority of private car drivers in Ireland.

 

[Leo]

The extra cost you've spent on such a big battery for that one trip a year would be appalling when you do the math. You could get yourself a 50kWh battery car with 200km range and rent a limo every year for the airport trip and still save money.

That's the thing with purchases like cars where the heart often plays a bigger role than the head. If everyone was to do the maths, most would end up owning something like Fiat 500s or not buying one at all. I'm not sure what formula would spit out the Hyundai Tucson as the logical choice, but that was the best selling car here last year.

People also like to have flexibility and so put a value on that. The premium for an ~80kWh battery over a ~60kWh one is ~€7k, some people would consider that well worthwhile for an additional 30% of range.

 

[Baby boomer]

The 500km range is only worthwhile if you regularly make such journeys. There's no point in paying mega bucks for a 100kWh battery and then the longest trip you ever do is 100km and once a year you drive to the airport and back. The extra cost you've spent on such a big battery for that one trip a year would be appalling when you do the math. You could get yourself a 50kWh battery car with 200km range and rent a limo every year for the airport trip and still save money.

If you regularly travel 500km in one trip you are in the minority of private car drivers in Ireland.

I disagree profoundly. A car with a 200km range is a pale shadow of what a car should be. And presumably that's day 1 range, with battery fully topped up, lightly loaded, warm weather with no heating or a/c. The idea that you can't go outside a 100km (60 miles!!) radius without planning your journey around recharging points is frankly a bit sad. You lose all flexibility to change your travel plans, take a spontaneous diversion and do all the things that the most basic ICE enables you to do. Range anxiety will only stop being a thing when EV owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about how to get the most out of the battery. Just like how you don't hear ICE owners talking about how to squeeze the last few miles out of the last drop of diesel before finding a filling station with a fast pump and a compatible hose!! Refuelling just needs to be a boring routine operation that isn't even worthy of comment. If I tell someone I drove to the far reaches of West Cork last week, their very next question won't be: "oh, how did you manage to top up on diesel?" When a similar journey in an EV induces a similar lack of interest in recharging, then, and only then, is range anxiety no longer a thing.

Now, I wish that this wasn't the case. I like technology and new and more efficient ways of doing things. I like saving money too (this is askaboutmoney, after all!) And EVs are so much more efficient than ICE - a battery and motor is so much simpler than the traditional engine with associated gearbox, clutch, cooling system, starter motor, alternator, etc, etc. Then there's regenerative braking and so on.
But there's two huge problems, range and price. I just can't pretend to ignore those for the sake of being all "green". I will not pay a 50% premium for a vehicle with cut down functionality.
I have already taken the plunge and installed a domestic heat pump and underfloor heating (for less than the price premium of an EV over an ICE.) It is an excellent investment and gives superb comfort and cost effectiveness. I will probably install solar PV very shortly as it also makes economic sense. (Although battery storage probably doesn't, yet.)

And when EV hits 500km consistent range without a price premium over ICE, I'm onboard. But until then, I need a vehicle that meets all of my needs, all of the time. Not most of my needs most of the time.

 

[PGF2016]

I disagree profoundly. A car with a 200km range is a pale shadow of what a car should be. And presumably that's day 1 range, with battery fully topped up, lightly loaded, warm weather with no heating or a/c. The idea that you can't go outside a 100km (60 miles!!) radius without planning your journey around recharging points is frankly a bit sad. You lose all flexibility to change your travel plans, take a spontaneous diversion and do all the things that the most basic ICE enables you to do. Range anxiety will only stop being a thing when EV owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about how to get the most out of the battery. Just like how you don't hear ICE owners talking about how to squeeze the last few miles out of the last drop of diesel before finding a filling station with a fast pump and a compatible hose!! Refuelling just needs to be a boring routine operation that isn't even worthy of comment. If I tell someone I drove to the far reaches of West Cork last week, their very next question won't be: "oh, how did you manage to top up on diesel?" When a similar journey in an EV induces a similar lack of interest in recharging, then, and only then, is range anxiety no longer a thing.

Now, I wish that this wasn't the case. I like technology and new and more efficient ways of doing things. I like saving money too (this is askaboutmoney, after all!) And EVs are so much more efficient than ICE - a battery and motor is so much simpler than the traditional engine with associated gearbox, clutch, cooling system, starter motor, alternator, etc, etc. Then there's regenerative braking and so on.
But there's two huge problems, range and price. I just can't pretend to ignore those for the sake of being all "green". I will not pay a 50% premium for a vehicle with cut down functionality.
I have already taken the plunge and installed a domestic heat pump and underfloor heating (for less than the price premium of an EV over an ICE.) It is an excellent investment and gives superb comfort and cost effectiveness. I will probably install solar PV very shortly as it also makes economic sense. (Although battery storage probably doesn't, yet.)

And when EV hits 500km consistent range without a price premium over ICE, I'm onboard. But until then, I need a vehicle that meets all of my needs, all of the time. Not most of my needs most of the time.

Genuine question and not having a go - how many times a year do you drive more than 300km in one go?

I understand you want the option to be spontaneous but am still interested in the answer.


And if anyone else wants to chime in feel free.

Personally I'd do it less than 5 times a year.

 

[Baby boomer]

Genuine question and not having a go - how many times a year do you drive more than 300km in one go?

I understand you want the option to be spontaneous but am still interested in the answer.


And if anyone else wants to chime in feel free.

Personally I'd do it less than 5 times a year.

Good question. I do a regular round trip of almost exactly 300km about once a fortnight. The odd time, I do that 2 or 3 times a week. I do a long trip of about 400km (one way) to visit family about every 6 weeks. Pre-pandemic, there used to be weekend breaks.....

But even if I didn't have those requirements, the point remains - once you have to even think about range, it's a problem!

 

[Leo]

And if anyone else wants to chime in feel free.

Personally I'd do it less than 5 times a year.

Looking at my Timeline, I've only done it 3 times in 5 years

 

[Blackrock1]

Looking at my Timeline, I've only done it 3 times in 5 years

which is more common, so the anxiety over range is often misplaced, maybe not in babyboomers case as the poster appears to travel long distances often, for most the perceived negatives of an EV are outweighed by the positives.

 

[fayf]

Genuine question and not having a go - how many times a year do you drive more than 300km in one go?

I understand you want the option to be spontaneous but am still interested in the answer.


And if anyone else wants to chime in feel free.

Personally I'd do it less than 5 times a year.

Its fairly limited number of occasions for me, 3 or 4 times per year for me, it tends to be around holidaying in Ireland, flying out of Dublin airport, or going to gigs events in Dublin where i am not staying over.

There are always people who drive a lot for work, or travelling a long way to visit family regularly, but thats a minority of the general population, EV’s may not suit them, but could suit the more than 3 quarters who are not driving 300kms + per return trip, on a weekly or bi weekly basis.

 

[Itchy]

But even if I didn't have those requirements, the point remains - once you have to even think about range, it's a problem!

Problem is subjective though. For example, if I paid you €90 (say 50l @€1.80 per l) every time you had to overcome this problem, would it ease the pain?

 

[Baby boomer]

Problem is subjective though. For example, if I paid you €90 (say 50l @€1.80 per l) every time you had to overcome this problem, would it ease the pain?

So you're paying me €90, say twice a week, for the lifetime of my EV. Deal! Not alone does it ease the pain, it's enough to finance, fuel and maintain a decent ICE alongside the EV.

 

[RetirementPlan]

I disagree profoundly. A car with a 200km range is a pale shadow of what a car should be. And presumably that's day 1 range, with battery fully topped up, lightly loaded, warm weather with no heating or a/c. The idea that you can't go outside a 100km (60 miles!!) radius without planning your journey around recharging points is frankly a bit sad. You lose all flexibility to change your travel plans, take a spontaneous diversion and do all the things that the most basic ICE enables you to do. Range anxiety will only stop being a thing when EV owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about how to get the most out of the battery. Just like how you don't hear ICE owners talking about how to squeeze the last few miles out of the last drop of diesel before finding a filling station with a fast pump and a compatible hose!! Refuelling just needs to be a boring routine operation that isn't even worthy of comment. If I tell someone I drove to the far reaches of West Cork last week, their very next question won't be: "oh, how did you manage to top up on diesel?" When a similar journey in an EV induces a similar lack of interest in recharging, then, and only then, is range anxiety no longer a thing.

When will diesel owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about their particular filters and their adblue?

 

[Baby boomer]

When will diesel owners no longer need to swap tips and stories about their particular filters and their adblue?

Filters? What are you on about? It's just not an issue. Neither is AdBlue. You get a message on the dash when it's low. You can top it up at just about any filling station next time you're getting a fuel top-up. No tips, no war stories or fireside tales necessary. Motoring as it should be. Just get on with it, no fuss, no anxiety.

 

[RetirementPlan]

Filters? What are you on about? It's just not an issue. Neither is AdBlue. You get a message on the dash when it's low. You can top it up at just about any filling station next time you're getting a fuel top-up. No tips, no war stories or fireside tales necessary. Motoring as it should be. Just get on with it, no fuss, no anxiety.

Six pages of search results about it here on AAM though, so seems to be a a few war stories or anxiety about it here.

Are you sure ICE motoring is as anxiety-free as you think? How about annual maintenance and servicing, NCT, emissions tests and all that?

 

[Blackrock1]

Filters? What are you on about? It's just not an issue. Neither is AdBlue. You get a message on the dash when it's low. You can top it up at just about any filling station next time you're getting a fuel top-up. No tips, no war stories or fireside tales necessary. Motoring as it should be. Just get on with it, no fuss, no anxiety.

imagine having to go out of your way to refuel your car all the time.

 

[Leo]

which is more common, so the anxiety over range is often misplaced, maybe not in babyboomers case as the poster appears to travel long distances often, for most the perceived negatives of an EV are outweighed by the positives.

Yeah, average mileage on private cars here is 16k a year, so just over 300km in total every week.

 

[Baby boomer]

Six pages of search results about it here on AAM though, so seems to be a a few war stories or anxiety about it here.

Are you sure ICE motoring is as anxiety-free as you think? How about annual maintenance and servicing, NCT, emissions tests and all that?

Ah here now, you're really clutching at straws!

Annual maintenance and servicing? The clue is in the word "Annual". I can deal with that. Yes, I'll happily concede an EV requires less maintenance. But it also requires 1.5 times the purchase price and has, ahem, range issues!

NCT? A pain in the ass but don't EVs have to do an NCT too? BTW, most NCT failures are for tyres, brakes and suspension.

Emissions test? Part of the NCT. Do your annual maintenance and servicing and the emissions test won't be a problem.

 

[AlbacoreA]

I very rarely do a long journey 100K+ in the car.
I also fill up at the same station about 95% of the time, the one nearest my house.

 

[Leo]

We should probably bring this back on topic now, I'd suggest new threads for any ICE Vs EV topics to thrash them out in detail.