EU and Japan to sign historic trade deal

TheBigShort

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https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0717/979174-eu_japan/


Im not too au fait on the details of these matters, but on the face of it I assume that as the UK is still part of the EU it is also a beneficiary of this EU and Japan free trade deal?

However, when it leaves the EU it will, apparently, try to negotiate its own free trade deal with Japan?

But as far I as I know, under WTO rules, Japan will not be in a position to negotiate better t&c for the UK over the EU? The EU would be mightily pee-d off I would imagine and it would undermine this new deal?

So the best the UK can hope for is a free-trade deal with Japan equal to this deal with the EU (of which the UK is already a part of).

Is the madness of Brexit not obvious or am I missing something?
 
That’s fair enough, but it’s a sad reflection of the British psyche today if, after centuries of invading other peoples lands, and centuries of past wars with its European neighbours that it cannot cope with the concept of pooled sovereignty.

Regardless of the issues some Brits have with the EU (and depending on who you listen to it could be anything from fish to immigration to EU courts or free-trade agreements) the real politik is that the issues they have will not disappear upon leaving the EU.

Instead they will be back to the negotiating table very soon afterwards tying to untangle what it was that was not untangled in the first place.

A free-trade deal with Japan perhaps?
 
Nothing like a bit of Brit-bashing to liven up a dull evening... :rolleyes:

Not at all, the same applies to the French, the Germans, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch et al.
It would apply to us also if we had ever had had the wherewithal to pursue foreign riches.
I have every respect for British people and its nation. Outside its military endeavours and arms sales, its influence on the world has been hugely positive.
I just think it is sad that, despite the failings of the EU (perceived or real) that the ordinary Brit, and right up to highest political office, cannot see beyond a very narrow nationalistic stance that still says we are better than all the rest.

If they want to leave EU, well and good, I wish they would get on with it instead of bemoaning what the EU will or wont do.
Instead they want a deal, with all the best bits of EU membership (free trade) but none of the pooled sovereignty that has facilitated that free-trade in the first place.
 
EU (perceived or real) that the ordinary Brit, and right up to highest political office, cannot see beyond a very narrow nationalistic stance that still says we are better than all the rest.

QED.

This sort of nation-baiting has no place on AAM, in my opinion.
 
QED.

This sort of nation-baiting has no place on AAM, in my opinion.

Not sure how you have interpreted my comments as 'nation-baiting'?
I think it is a legitimate criticism of the viewpoints that are driving Brexit. Boris Johnson, in his Telegraph article, states he wants to see a more open, more global Britain after Brexit, by;

Step 1 - close borders to European citizens.

Step 2 - leave customs unions and single market, so as to negotiate a bespoke customs union and frictionless access to the single market.

Step 3 - take back control of courts and laws, by aligning courts and laws with that of the EU.

Step 4 - Take control of our fish!
 
Not sure how you have interpreted my comments as 'nation-baiting'?
I think it is a legitimate criticism of the viewpoints that are driving Brexit. Boris Johnson, in his Telegraph article, states he wants to see a more open, more global Britain after Brexit, by;
Step 1 - close borders to European citizens.
Step 2 - leave customs unions and single market, so as to negotiate a bespoke customs union and frictionless access to the single market.
Step 3 - take back control of courts and laws, by aligning courts and laws with that of the EU.
Step 4 - Take control of our fish!

Canada and Australia are open and global nations, and control all those things.
How open and global are the Visegrád group of EU member states, by comparison?
Has the EU done a better job than Canada and Australia at managing immigration, or fish?

Britain should have left the EU at Maastricht, they were clearly uncomfortable with the entire concept of the EU, the mess now is the price they are paying for bottling it then. If there is no trade deal between Britain and the EU, EU citizens will pay a heavy heavy price too. Some Irish peoole who should know better are laughing at the mess Britain is in, yet whole sectors of our economy will be at risk in the event of no deal as they are dependent on UK to take our exports. Anyone in the EU laughing, sneering or gloating at Britain obviously doesn't give a damn about Irish farmers, Spanish produce growers or French winemakers, to name but a few.
 
Every two-bit bigot in the land thinks that their criticisms of entire nationalities are legitimate. Not for a second suggesting you're one of those but you get my drift.

Ok, I will desist from trying to decipher your cryptic clues only to suggest that when I said 'ordinary brit', I should have clarified it as 'ordinary brit who is in favour of Brexit driven primarily by a narrow nationalistic agenda - unfortunately that is a majority.

Obviously the part where I commended the British and its
influence on the world has been hugely positive.
...passed you by.
 
Canada and Australia are open and global nations, and control all those things.
How open and global are the Visegrád group of EU member states, by comparison?

I dont see the correlation, sorry. The EU is a collection of member states pooling sovereignty in agreed common interest.
The concept originates from a shared history of war over hundreds of years that typically manifested itself from trade disputes, bankruptcies, arms races etc between nation states.
So a common market, with common rules and laws, a pooling of resources and wealth, can assist in a process of a level playing field amongst all member states.
The UK wants to leave. Which is fine, that is their right to do so.
Its the basis upon which they are leaving is what I think is stupid.
"Take back our controls of our laws", they yell.
One of the first decisions made by the British High Court, ruling that the British Parliament give consent to the notice of Brexit, was labeled as "Enemies of the People!" by prominent Brexiteers The Daily Mail.
This was a British court, imposing British law.
The point being, it doesn't take an EU court to impose decisions that are not agreeable, it happens all the time, in all courts.
The primary issue surrounding court decisions is whether or not there are built on democratic ideals of due process, presumption of innocence, access, etc...all of which EU courts are, as are British courts.


If there is no trade deal between Britain and the EU, EU citizens will pay a heavy heavy price too. Some Irish peoole who should know better are laughing at the mess Britain is in, yet whole sectors of our economy will be at risk in the event of no deal as they are dependent on UK to take our exports.

I agree, hence the stupidity of Brexit. Which sectors of the British economy were at risk before the Brexit referendum? Which sectors are now at risk in the absence of a trade deal?
Who, and why exactly have these risks emerged? It is wholly disingenuous to start pointing the finger at the EU.
Im no lover of the EU, disenchanted somewhat since we had to vote twice in our referendums, but I blame the lack of political backbone here for not standing up for our peoples decisions.
And I dont like the Euro currency. It doesn't work, its one glove fits all is not suitable to all participating economies.
Nevertheless, the concept of a Europe pooling its sovereignty and its resources in common cause of peace, and improving the standards of living of its people outweighs the narrow nationalistic agenda in my view.


Anyone in the EU laughing, sneering or gloating at Britain obviously doesn't give a damn about Irish farmers, Spanish produce growers or French winemakers, to name but a few.

I would disagree. It was Nigel Farage who stood in the European Parliament and said "...you are not laughing now, are you?".
Again, its the self-deprecating psyche of the British nationalist to think that it is them against the rest.
If there is no trade deal, the only ones laughing will be Farage and his travelling donkeys.
 
But back to the OP.

Can the UK negotiate a 'better' trade deal with Japan than what is already on the table with the EU (of which they are a beneficiary)?
Im sure they can agree to trading on things like Whale spearing and fox-hunting holidays, that they wouldn't be able to do as a member of the EU, but overall, what can the UK achieve with Japan that it hasn't already have with the EU?
 
And I dont like the Euro currency. It doesn't work, its one glove fits all is not suitable to all participating economies.
Nevertheless, the concept of a Europe pooling its sovereignty and its resources in common cause of peace, and improving the standards of living of its people outweighs the narrow nationalistic agenda in my view.

There are lots of narrow nationalistic agendas being pursued through the EU. It was one of the reasons Britain is leaving.
The Euro has been a weapon of mass destruction to the peoples of Europe, I don't care about the concept it claims to serve, I care about the reality. It was not originally as the EEC, but it has become, a power project for large EU nations.

Britain perhaps naively assumed the EU would think about the impact of the failure to do trade deal would have on its own citizens and would approach it with those considerations in mind.
But the project is all that matters, the fact that it's a trans-national agenda rather than a "narrow nationalistic" one is irrelevant. The same contempt for the ordinary person we saw with the Euro, is evident in how the EU conducts Brexit negotiations.
There is no reason why Brexit has to mean disastrous economic consequences for the EU citizens, but Barnier and Juncker appear to care as little about them as Farage.

EU treaties do allow for a member state to leave don't they? I don't see what common cause of peace is served by the way they are conducting Brexit negotiations, like some spurned lover in a divorce.
 
There are lots of narrow nationalistic agendas being pursued through the EU.

I agree. But the pooling of sovereignty requires in some instances unanimity, hence the reason it can take longer to negotiate trade deals. This has advantages (general concensus, no one power broker dominating affairs or the agenda) and disadvantages (time).

The Euro has been a weapon of mass destruction to the peoples of Europe, I don't care about the concept it claims to serve, I care about the reality. It was not originally as the EEC, but it has become, a power project for large EU nations.

The concept is the reality. Perhaps it does not resonate so profoundly on these shores, but Europe and war are synonymous with each other.

Britain perhaps naively assumed the EU would think about the impact of the failure to do trade deal would have on its own citizens and would approach it with those considerations in mind.

See this is what I dont understand. Firstly, it is the UK that wants to leave. It has a PM that says it wants a deal, but there are those who could take her place who are quite prepared to do no-deal.
So what is the EU to do? Negotiate a deal with a PM who doesn't have the support to get the deal done?

I heard snippets of Johnsons resignation speech in the UK Parliament today.
Its clear to me that he thinks May should go.
But will he go for leadership?
Who are the EU supposed to negotiate with?

EU treaties do allow for a member state to leave don't they? I don't see what common cause of peace is served by the way they are conducting Brexit negotiations, like some spurned lover in a divorce.

What negotiations? What does the UK want exactly?
Read Johnsons speech today, he lambasts the Chequers agreement. But he was full steam behind Lancaster House 18 months ago.
Its clear, there are at least two (if not more) Brexit camps.
This is the farce, this is the idiocy. Who knows what they want? Or what they will propose?
And when they figure that much out (if ever), then there is no guarantee that it will be accepted by Brussels.
Aside from fanciful notions that Brussels are acting like 'spurned lovers', they do actually have to manage the interests of the EU. It is their responsibility to ensure it prevails - that is their business.
So agreeing trade deal with the UK that has all the benefits of EU membership, but none of the obligation to pool sovereignty, is simply cloud-cukoo land. For the EU to agree such a deal, they might as well wind-up and call it a day.
 
There are lots of narrow nationalistic agendas being pursued through the EU. It was one of the reasons Britain is leaving.
The Euro has been a weapon of mass destruction to the peoples of Europe, I don't care about the concept it claims to serve, I care about the reality. It was not originally as the EEC, but it has become, a power project for large EU nations.

Britain perhaps naively assumed the EU would think about the impact of the failure to do trade deal would have on its own citizens and would approach it with those considerations in mind.
But the project is all that matters, the fact that it's a trans-national agenda rather than a "narrow nationalistic" one is irrelevant. The same contempt for the ordinary person we saw with the Euro, is evident in how the EU conducts Brexit negotiations.
There is no reason why Brexit has to mean disastrous economic consequences for the EU citizens, but Barnier and Juncker appear to care as little about them as Farage.

EU treaties do allow for a member state to leave don't they? I don't see what common cause of peace is served by the way they are conducting Brexit negotiations, like some spurned lover in a divorce.

Sometimes when I listen to people talking about the EU, I am reminded of that famous scene from the Life of Brian where the question 'What have the romans ever done for us...' is asked. There is a lot wrong with the EU and the politicians are to blame for being so disconnected to people on the ground but the benefits of the EU far outweigh the negatives in the long term. The problem with the UK is that they are not exactly sure what they want. They want to pick and choose what parts of the EU they want to keep but it can't work like that. Otherwise everyone will just keep the bits and pieces they want and the project will fall apart. They can't even come up with a coherent strategy amongst themselves so they can hardly expect the EU to do it for them. Yes, the EU will suffer with no deal and especially Ireland but I think they would rather suffer that for a period of time than offer the UK an easy exit and have to repeat the exercise the next time an Anti EU party comes to power in another country.
 
Here is a question, why does the EU and UK have to agree a deal at all?
Why not simply agree now, today, to implement WTO rules and see how things pan out?
If a common cause arises, a deal can be struck at a later time in the future.
 
There is a lot wrong with the EU and the politicians are to blame for being so disconnected to people on the ground

Exactly, but this is the type of thinking that prevails in national politics too. You dont have to go all the way to EU to find politicians out of touch. Local politicians tend to do a good job of that themselves.
Arguably the Brexit Yes vote was a consequence of national politicians out of touch with its electorate.
Political upheaval has/is occurring across Europe (incl Ireland) and US to lessor and greater degrees ever since the economic collapse.
Politicians across the spectrum have failed, or are failing to address the consequences of that crash.
 
Yes, the EU will suffer with no deal and especially Ireland but I think they would rather suffer that for a period of time than offer the UK an easy exit and have to repeat the exercise the next time an Anti EU party comes to power in another country.

They won't suffer. They're too cute to cut off their noses to spite their faces. It's ordinary people, their own citizens, who will suffer.
 
They won't suffer. They're too cute to cut off their noses to spite their faces. It's ordinary people, their own citizens, who will suffer.


Surely the fact that they are too cute to cut off their noses to spite their faces is a good thing?? Everyone will suffer. Citizens of the UK and citizens in the EU. That doesn't mean that the EU should automatically choose the least painful option of just letting the UK pick what parts of the single market they want without any of the obligations. There will be an impact but it won't lead to a Great Depression. Can't blame the EU for thinking that protecting the Single Market going forward is more important than making Brexit as painless as possible. In many ways, it has to be painful so other countries don't get the same idea. Might not be right but it is understandable. What it means is that the onus has been on the UK to provide the exit strategy that satisfies the EU and that so far has been anything but straightforward. They can't even get a negotiating position agreed between themselves, never mind involving the EU.
 
They won't suffer. They're too cute to cut off their noses to spite their faces. It's ordinary people, their own citizens, who will suffer.

I don't think its as simple as this. Tensions in the EU from monetary policy to fiscal constraints to immigration from Africa and Syria to racial tensions are manifesting in political upheaval.
Brexit is a symptom of this and a hard Brexit is in no-ones interest. That said, given the political upheaval in the UK at the moment its hard to see anything but a hard Brexit.
This will obviously have economic consequences, but it is in the interest of Brussels to minimise those consequences as much as possible, ditto ECB.
What exactly this would entail, I do not know. But economic downturns breed political instability, political instability breeds conflict.
Whatever the outcome of Brexit, its in both the UK and EU's interest to advance common interests to the mutual benefit of its citizens - that is the political challenge.
 
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