I just watched the debate and have to say Enda won hands downs, Bertie looked like a man who knows his time is up.I voted FF last time but will think long and hard until voting day. Cowan should have been leader going into this election for FF to have any chance. Bertie your time is up.
Enda V Bertie
- Thread starter dodo
- Start date
Anyone see the Debate?
Thought is was fairly low-key and civilised.
Bertie did not make the most of it though - he should have put Kenny into his place ie a man who has only three years experience at the Cabinet table as opposed to twenty.
Thought Kenny started very well and middled well but it took Bertie a long time to exert his muscle but did not finish his opponent off.
Kenny was like a dog who wouldn't let go - Bertie was like the big sleepy guard dog in the cartoon who only really woke up at the end.
Doubt that it would change anybody's mind.
Miriam looked a bit more glam than usual.
Thought is was fairly low-key and civilised.
Bertie did not make the most of it though - he should have put Kenny into his place ie a man who has only three years experience at the Cabinet table as opposed to twenty.
Thought Kenny started very well and middled well but it took Bertie a long time to exert his muscle but did not finish his opponent off.
Kenny was like a dog who wouldn't let go - Bertie was like the big sleepy guard dog in the cartoon who only really woke up at the end.
Doubt that it would change anybody's mind.
Miriam looked a bit more glam than usual.
Re: Anyone see the Debate?
P.S. The follow up discussion was even more boring if that is even possible!
As mentioned elsewhere this was another case of the "chair" not keeping things in check and on track. I found it boring, rambling and irritating to hear the two talk over each other about minutiae rather than they broad policy details. Certainly didn't influence me one way or another. Still undecided and with nobody that I can honestly say that I support to vote for. Another reverse beauty contest I guess - rank them by how little I disagree with them and vote accordingly...
P.S. The follow up discussion was even more boring if that is even possible!
I just had a look at Betfair and Paddy Power and the betting suggests that Bertie won, as his price has shortened and Enda's has drifted.
Out of the 11 candidates in my constituency, there are only two who I would deem professional and would be able to hold their own with an EU level. The rest are either 'stroke' or 'very local issue' candidates. This was my deciding factor.
Out of the 11 candidates in my constituency, there are only two who I would deem professional and would be able to hold their own with an EU level. The rest are either 'stroke' or 'very local issue' candidates. This was my deciding factor.
Z
z108
Guest
Actually, I think Enda won this time (taking into account more than the debate but the reality surrounding it) but God knows which way I'll vote if I actually remember to vote on the day.
I thought Enda kept his cool and I didnt see how Enda lacked any confidence which is what one (biased? prove it?) commentator said after the show. I was impressed by how calm Enda appeared compared to the scaremongering from his opposition.
I liked how Enda said if it didnt work he would step down and I am so deeply disappointed with the allegations of sleaze surrounding Bertie lately which Enda didnt even mention (unlike McDowell in a previous debate for whom no holds are barred).
The experience issue doesnt really matter in my opinion as my view has been Berties' government is run by highly paid advisors anyway like the upper echelons of the civil service who conduct feasibility studies on committees to investigate every decision alongside special advisors like Martin Mansergh etc. And when Bertie also had his first run as Taoiseach it was with not that much experience either. And in any case many skills in life are transferable elsewhere. Intelligence will gravitate towards whichever party is in power. My only worry is if the left leaning philosophys which are anti business got into power which I doubt would happen anyway as on balance any coalition would gravitate towards the centre.
Giving unlimited non means tested medical cards to millionaire pensioners is a looney communist idea anyway. Why should Charlie Haughey for example get a medical card ? Why not abolish the VHI and have a system similar to Canada?
I still dont know who to vote for and maybe after all this I will forget to vote like I did last time but for some reason this election has caused me to reflect upon these issues which I observed in my daily life...
Not being trained in economics or having really paid academic attention to politicians or what they have to say I find it difficult to consider the differences between parties as comprehensively as I would like apart from some common sense ways and would love to see an independent dispassionate view of party differences without emotionalism, personality politics or scare mongering but I do think the economy comes first above all else.
I want the Multinationals to continue to invest and gravitate towards here and I would like to see a positive climate for home made Irish businesses and enterprise. I also want an end to appointments of friends of those in government without a proper independent tendering process and an end to corporate donations. I cant enter a competition to win a prize if I am an employee of a company or have connections to the company which offers the prize for example so why should government be different ?
I think all corporate donations should be donated to the strengthening of democracy and not to the strengthening of any one party or individual and as such pooled into a central fund. This idea needs a bit of further thought but a cap on each individuals spending and the amount of posters and flyers would ensure a level playing field. ( I have about ten of the same flyer from a local politician in my letterbox) And a low interest loan or grant could be given to any private citizen who wishes to compete in an election.
I did also note Bertie said when challenged about houses and communities without services or schools that they didnt expect so many immigrants to come. Yes he did because he let them in. Dont get this comment wrong, Im pro immigration (when the immigrants have something to contribute and are law abiding) and Pro European but he cant deny responsibility for this lack of joined up thinking. I did however like his remark that he cant ignore the people which is why projects get delayed.
Immigration is an issue for me in so far as the government can legislate concerning it because theres no point having more than the economy can provide for and personally I would like to see all immigrants non ghettoised (riots in france?), integrated into our society and given a test of understanding of Irish history and culture, given english lessons, made to swear an oath of loyalty to the state, given a health check and background checked for serious crime. And then of course welcomed with open arms once they pass a test of conformity with a culture of tolerance, freedom and democracy. Overall Im happy with how it is going so far but any problems which are allowed take root will be long lasting and not easily solved [again look to France(riots) and Holland (democracy attacked)]. We can learn the lessons from the mistakes other countries have made.
I'm deeply disappointed with inflation, house/apartment prices supported by grants to investors in the wrong areas where demand would have sustained development anyway (Temple bar would have been built anyway due to demand in my opinion), workers having to commute hours to work daily with no services like schools for their kids. These commuters could be productive for society in so many other ways. They could work in their communities, on their health and fitness, spend more time with their children or develop new skills and network better if they didnt have to sit in a car for 2 hours a day.
I'm happy with the progress in the North but the North happened because the people who live there made it for themselves with some help from Albert Reynolds and the Downing Street declaration. The North is bigger than any one party or individual and the peace process started before Bertie got into the Taoiseachs office. It was a cross party effort from everyone except the backward looking people in certain sections.
Im unhappy with the ATM and plastic money card taxes which are evil and fundamentally unfair in my opinion. I'm unhappy with VRT. Its easy not to worry about VRT when you're driving around in a government merc or jet. I d like to see more bottle banks everywhere and Im disappointed that our country has washed our hands of the abortion issue by exporting our problems instead of dealing with the health and well being of our citizens at home.
I'm unhappy with the amount of beggars on the streets which destroys my enjoyment of public spaces and amenities. OK begging is another form of private enterprise but they should be given alternatives to begging and if they dont accept those alternatives they should be dealt with by the law.
I worked my way across the width of the United States a few years ago as a student ( temporary immigrant) and I would have rather died of starvation than begged off anyone and broken any of their laws.
If people must have the freedom to solicit others for money on the streets,I am particularly disturbed whenever I see children begging while their parents or guardians are up the road watching them. This happens around Grafton Street all the time. Children caught begging should be put into care and their parents fined and or jailed for more than 3 offences. Someone bringing out a baby or a small child for begging purposes is in my view the corruption of a minor. If the children living in this country are important then the government should act on this.
But at the end of it all, isnt it all about the economy? Without a good economy we cant change our lives for the better in any meaningful way and which party is anti the economy? Whoever we choose will make mistakes and also make some correct decisions. they are all human.
I think I'll stop here.
ps I think our licensing laws should be reformed. No business person should be given a monopoly by the state. They should do to publicans exactly what was done to taxi drivers and restaurants should be able to serve alcohol more freely.
I thought Enda kept his cool and I didnt see how Enda lacked any confidence which is what one (biased? prove it?) commentator said after the show. I was impressed by how calm Enda appeared compared to the scaremongering from his opposition.
I liked how Enda said if it didnt work he would step down and I am so deeply disappointed with the allegations of sleaze surrounding Bertie lately which Enda didnt even mention (unlike McDowell in a previous debate for whom no holds are barred).
The experience issue doesnt really matter in my opinion as my view has been Berties' government is run by highly paid advisors anyway like the upper echelons of the civil service who conduct feasibility studies on committees to investigate every decision alongside special advisors like Martin Mansergh etc. And when Bertie also had his first run as Taoiseach it was with not that much experience either. And in any case many skills in life are transferable elsewhere. Intelligence will gravitate towards whichever party is in power. My only worry is if the left leaning philosophys which are anti business got into power which I doubt would happen anyway as on balance any coalition would gravitate towards the centre.
Giving unlimited non means tested medical cards to millionaire pensioners is a looney communist idea anyway. Why should Charlie Haughey for example get a medical card ? Why not abolish the VHI and have a system similar to Canada?
I still dont know who to vote for and maybe after all this I will forget to vote like I did last time but for some reason this election has caused me to reflect upon these issues which I observed in my daily life...
Not being trained in economics or having really paid academic attention to politicians or what they have to say I find it difficult to consider the differences between parties as comprehensively as I would like apart from some common sense ways and would love to see an independent dispassionate view of party differences without emotionalism, personality politics or scare mongering but I do think the economy comes first above all else.
I want the Multinationals to continue to invest and gravitate towards here and I would like to see a positive climate for home made Irish businesses and enterprise. I also want an end to appointments of friends of those in government without a proper independent tendering process and an end to corporate donations. I cant enter a competition to win a prize if I am an employee of a company or have connections to the company which offers the prize for example so why should government be different ?
I think all corporate donations should be donated to the strengthening of democracy and not to the strengthening of any one party or individual and as such pooled into a central fund. This idea needs a bit of further thought but a cap on each individuals spending and the amount of posters and flyers would ensure a level playing field. ( I have about ten of the same flyer from a local politician in my letterbox) And a low interest loan or grant could be given to any private citizen who wishes to compete in an election.
I did also note Bertie said when challenged about houses and communities without services or schools that they didnt expect so many immigrants to come. Yes he did because he let them in. Dont get this comment wrong, Im pro immigration (when the immigrants have something to contribute and are law abiding) and Pro European but he cant deny responsibility for this lack of joined up thinking. I did however like his remark that he cant ignore the people which is why projects get delayed.
Immigration is an issue for me in so far as the government can legislate concerning it because theres no point having more than the economy can provide for and personally I would like to see all immigrants non ghettoised (riots in france?), integrated into our society and given a test of understanding of Irish history and culture, given english lessons, made to swear an oath of loyalty to the state, given a health check and background checked for serious crime. And then of course welcomed with open arms once they pass a test of conformity with a culture of tolerance, freedom and democracy. Overall Im happy with how it is going so far but any problems which are allowed take root will be long lasting and not easily solved [again look to France(riots) and Holland (democracy attacked)]. We can learn the lessons from the mistakes other countries have made.
I'm deeply disappointed with inflation, house/apartment prices supported by grants to investors in the wrong areas where demand would have sustained development anyway (Temple bar would have been built anyway due to demand in my opinion), workers having to commute hours to work daily with no services like schools for their kids. These commuters could be productive for society in so many other ways. They could work in their communities, on their health and fitness, spend more time with their children or develop new skills and network better if they didnt have to sit in a car for 2 hours a day.
I'm happy with the progress in the North but the North happened because the people who live there made it for themselves with some help from Albert Reynolds and the Downing Street declaration. The North is bigger than any one party or individual and the peace process started before Bertie got into the Taoiseachs office. It was a cross party effort from everyone except the backward looking people in certain sections.
Im unhappy with the ATM and plastic money card taxes which are evil and fundamentally unfair in my opinion. I'm unhappy with VRT. Its easy not to worry about VRT when you're driving around in a government merc or jet. I d like to see more bottle banks everywhere and Im disappointed that our country has washed our hands of the abortion issue by exporting our problems instead of dealing with the health and well being of our citizens at home.
I'm unhappy with the amount of beggars on the streets which destroys my enjoyment of public spaces and amenities. OK begging is another form of private enterprise but they should be given alternatives to begging and if they dont accept those alternatives they should be dealt with by the law.
I worked my way across the width of the United States a few years ago as a student ( temporary immigrant) and I would have rather died of starvation than begged off anyone and broken any of their laws.
If people must have the freedom to solicit others for money on the streets,I am particularly disturbed whenever I see children begging while their parents or guardians are up the road watching them. This happens around Grafton Street all the time. Children caught begging should be put into care and their parents fined and or jailed for more than 3 offences. Someone bringing out a baby or a small child for begging purposes is in my view the corruption of a minor. If the children living in this country are important then the government should act on this.
But at the end of it all, isnt it all about the economy? Without a good economy we cant change our lives for the better in any meaningful way and which party is anti the economy? Whoever we choose will make mistakes and also make some correct decisions. they are all human.
I think I'll stop here.
ps I think our licensing laws should be reformed. No business person should be given a monopoly by the state. They should do to publicans exactly what was done to taxi drivers and restaurants should be able to serve alcohol more freely.
Last edited by a moderator:
WarrenBuffet
Registered User
- Messages
- 173
For a person who wonders if they will even remember to vote you sure as hell watched the debate last night in detail and then gave a commentary that must have taken the best part of 20 minutes to write!!!!
Z
z108
Guest
I actually watched the debate on RTE as I wrote it. Its the intellectual challenge and transferable skills involved in understanding something I dont usually think about which I am interested in rather than the politics part. I guess trying to understand money on this site is tied into the economics in some profound way.
Once I started writing I couldnt stop and I'm truly embarassed that I have always forgotten to vote but I still dont know who to vote for because I dont know if I have all of the story of each candidate or only part of the story and then theres the notion of trust . Who do you trust more ? Enda or Bertie?
Once I started writing I couldnt stop and I'm truly embarassed that I have always forgotten to vote
but I still dont know who to vote for because I dont know if I have all of the story of each candidate or only part of the story and then theres the notion of trust . Who do you trust more ? Enda or Bertie?I thought the debate (if you can call it that) was truely awful. Personally I thought Bertie won if that means anything. I thought Enda Kenny was confident but his lack of detail was staggering. It is all very good going on about your contract with the people but I was more interested in how he was going to achieve it. I thought he slipped up badly on the childcare under 5 issue and also on the tax issue when Bertie said his policies will benefit the top earners most of all and he couldn't deny it. I am also a bit of uncomfortable with the FG/LAB coalition. I think Labour have much more capable strong politicians (if only they had decent policies) and so even with FG being the dominant partner, would it be a case of the tail wagging the dog. I certainly think Pat is a stronger person and leader than Enda.
I don't understand why a politician like Bertie doesn't come out and admit that things aren't perfect, they haven't achieved everything they wanted and explain why but here are their suggestions for fixing it and asking for more time. I would have more respect for that than having them go on about how the health service isn't in crisis, Crime isn't a problem when everyone can see with their own eyes there are massive problems.
Miriam did look good though
I don't understand why a politician like Bertie doesn't come out and admit that things aren't perfect, they haven't achieved everything they wanted and explain why but here are their suggestions for fixing it and asking for more time. I would have more respect for that than having them go on about how the health service isn't in crisis, Crime isn't a problem when everyone can see with their own eyes there are massive problems.
Miriam did look good though
Can't believe Bertie said, on the area of population groth & housing that nobody knew we were going to have an extra .5m......why do you think all your buddies were re-zoning land for Bertie???? As for his attack on Enda re: the top 3% of earners....these are well represented each year in the FF Galway tents....
I think Enda did very well. I am from a FF family, but am seriously thinking of giving this guy a chance....his plans are measurable and will step down if he doesn't achieve...
Miriam looked well to btw
Firefly.
I think Enda did very well. I am from a FF family, but am seriously thinking of giving this guy a chance....his plans are measurable and will step down if he doesn't achieve...
Miriam looked well to btw
Firefly.
No clear winner to me anyway. Still disgusted by Bertie and his failure to do the decent thing and resign over the whole money scandal. He just sat there saying ' I answered all the questions'...What planet is he on? Or does he just think saying it makes it so.
Only good bit of the whole thing was when Bertie said ' you can't keep your contract' and Enda retorted ' You can't keep your promise'. What rubbish was Bertie on about- no child born today will benefit from the free under 5 GP scheme? Even if that were true- which it might not be- so what? It's a promise for the future. I just didn't understand the point which Bertie repeated again and again - I can only assume he thought he'd scored a point there. And Enda didn't even address it- avoided it as if Bertie HAD scored a point.
Miriam looked great though.
Only good bit of the whole thing was when Bertie said ' you can't keep your contract' and Enda retorted ' You can't keep your promise'. What rubbish was Bertie on about- no child born today will benefit from the free under 5 GP scheme? Even if that were true- which it might not be- so what? It's a promise for the future. I just didn't understand the point which Bertie repeated again and again - I can only assume he thought he'd scored a point there. And Enda didn't even address it- avoided it as if Bertie HAD scored a point.
Miriam looked great though.
DrMoriarty
Moderator
- Messages
- 5,173
Miriam looked well to btw
Dammit, maybe I should have tuned in after all...
Re: Anyone see the Debate?
Ditto. I think Ahern shaded it, but through no fault of his own. FG will probably be happy as it wont damage their election prospects. Kenny really should have avoided minutiae and hammered home the message that 10 years of FF had delivered a dysfunctional health system, disjointed transport, delinquent criminal justice system, and a damaged environment; he should nailed the message that it's time for a change and for integrity and accountability in politics.
Re: Anyone see the Debate?
I agree...he should have drove home the msg that Bertie had 10 years and did SFA & do we want another 5 years of this....
I agree...he should have drove home the msg that Bertie had 10 years and did SFA & do we want another 5 years of this....
I also thought M O'C was poor yesterday - she allowed far too much waffle and rehearsed lines.
Looking at the French election debate, it was interesting to see that both candidates had a timer to show for how long each talked..maybe RTE could do this also.
Finally, I would just like to say that RTE really needs a Paxman !
Looking at the French election debate, it was interesting to see that both candidates had a timer to show for how long each talked..maybe RTE could do this also.
Finally, I would just like to say that RTE really needs a Paxman !
Agree....could see Matt Cooper in such a role in the coming years, now that he's on the telly
For me, Enda Kenny allowed Bertie to pick holes in alot of his policies and wasn't able to defend them very well. I thought Berties argument about the amount of acute hospital beds was a good example. FG claim they will deliver 2300 extra beds under the National Development Plan. Bertie quiet rightly pointed out that this plan only funds 500 extra beds and so to pay for the extra 1800 beds out of the NDP, FG would have to prioritise the beds over other services such as cancer services and new equipment. I just don't think he was able to articulate an adequate response. I don't think he fully understands all the relevant issues in great detail. I just think his lack of ministerial experience showed through. Don't think the debate will have damaged his prospects though.
Re: Anyone see the Debate?
The debate was boring, but the follow up - sweet mother of God, why did I watch that - What was the point of having 2 party hacks on the show?? What did they think they'd say - unbelievable.
As mentioned elsewhere this was another case of the "chair" not keeping things in check and on track. I found it boring, rambling and irritating to hear the two talk over each other about minutiae rather than they broad policy details. Certainly didn't influence me one way or another. Still undecided and with nobody that I can honestly say that I support to vote for. Another reverse beauty contest I guess - rank them by how little I disagree with them and vote accordingly...
P.S. The follow up discussion was even more boring if that is even possible!
The debate was boring, but the follow up - sweet mother of God, why did I watch that - What was the point of having 2 party hacks on the show?? What did they think they'd say - unbelievable.
Pretty boring. Both are poor debaters. No winner as far as I was concerned. Both seemed to play for a scoreless draw. Don't think it will change anything.
I agree Miriam let the rambling go on too long but she was a hell of a lot better than Mark Little who should not be let out. Its no wonder that it was nicknamed the "Tanaiste's Debate" (although I enjoyed it more than the "big one").
I still believe it will end up being the Bertie and Pat show (despite a robust response from Labour HQ the last time I said this) - with "Inda" left swinging in the wind.
I agree Miriam let the rambling go on too long but she was a hell of a lot better than Mark Little who should not be let out. Its no wonder that it was nicknamed the "Tanaiste's Debate" (although I enjoyed it more than the "big one").
I still believe it will end up being the Bertie and Pat show (despite a robust response from Labour HQ the last time I said this) - with "Inda" left swinging in the wind.
Yes 'debate' was boring and yes Miriam looked good.
In terms of structure one thing that stood out for me was the amount of times Enda let Bertie interrupt him unchecked - yet any time Enda interrupted Bertie it was " now please please" and he even said something like "now I didn't interrupt you" What??!!
They were both at it but I think Bertie was the worst culprit. Enda was just too polite and it may translate as ineffectual. Thought Enda wasn't bad - fairly composed unlike Bertie who often looked a bit riled. Bertie did pick a few relevant holes but I think his days are numbered
In terms of structure one thing that stood out for me was the amount of times Enda let Bertie interrupt him unchecked - yet any time Enda interrupted Bertie it was " now please please" and he even said something like "now I didn't interrupt you" What??!!
They were both at it but I think Bertie was the worst culprit. Enda was just too polite and it may translate as ineffectual. Thought Enda wasn't bad - fairly composed unlike Bertie who often looked a bit riled. Bertie did pick a few relevant holes but I think his days are numbered