Key Post Electric Vehicles

joe sod

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1,400
BMW sales have been hit in America as owners switch to the Tesla model 3 in large numbers.

BMW are a luxury brand in the US, they are not mainstream, afterall Tesla only sold 400,000 units worldwide last year whereas the total US car sales last year were 17 million units. Therefore Tesla is a desirable statement car like BMW , but it barely registers in the overall market, its biggest sales are probably in California among the Hollywood set
 

Leo

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Disappointing that facts are being ignored. BMW sales have been hit in America as owners switch to the Tesla model 3 in large numbers.

What facts? As Joe points out, BMW are pretty niche in the US with a market share of less than 2%, but sales numbers have risen the last two years, not fallen. Tesla sold less than 200k cars in the US last year, and much of that was driven by the lower cost Model 3 which is being pitched below the BMW 3 Series.
 

Leo

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nothing seen on here would convince any half intelligent human being into buying an out dated technology such as the diesel engine today that will have no resale value tomorrow.

The main problem there is there are few alternatives for the transport and haulage sector. There are a number of trials of hydrogen fuel cell powered trucks and buses across Europe and further afield, but mass-scale viability is still a long way off there.
 

PGF2016

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453
What facts? As Joe points out, BMW are pretty niche in the US with a market share of less than 2%, but sales numbers have risen the last two years, not fallen. Tesla sold less than 200k cars in the US last year, and much of that was driven by the lower cost Model 3 which is being pitched below the BMW 3 Series.
What facts? Well despite EVs in Ireland holding their value better than ICE cars the following nonsense is spouted regarding resale values:

nothing seen on here would convince any half intelligent human being into buying an ev today that will have no resale value tomorrow.
 

PGF2016

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453
The main problem there is there are few alternatives for the transport and haulage sector. There are a number of trials of hydrogen fuel cell powered trucks and buses across Europe and further afield, but mass-scale viability is still a long way off there.
Agreed... but that response wasn't serious. See the post that it is replying to.
 

Leo

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What facts? Well despite EVs in Ireland holding their value better than ICE cars the following nonsense is spouted regarding resale values:

I think it's too early to call that yet, EVs are still a small niche, so the sales volumes aren't there to normalise the second hand market. The average age of a car in Ireland is 8.7 years, so you need data from beyond that timeframe to tell the full story. EVs of that vintage are rare, and the technology has moved on significantly.

As I said, today's models may fare better, but just looking at Nissan, 2012 Leafs advertised for sale look to have dropped ~80% of their original selling price versus ~65% for Micras of that vintage.
 

Purple

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11,155
EV's are less environmentally damaging than ICE cars. There's no doubt about that. The question is if you are doing low mileage is it better (less environmentally damaging) to keep your existing ICE car rather than buy a new Electric car.
Given the carbon footprint of the production of a car it may well be. Therefore just take that into account when you are thinking about changing your car.
If you need a "new" car then buy a second hand one. The best environmental option here is to buy a second hand EV.
 
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mbro

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40
I am looking at getting an EV in my workplace as a company car. I would be the first one so it seems to be a learning process. We lease cars generally but it appears that the leasing companies don't pass on the grants so the cars are significantly more expensive. The reason from what i have gathered at least is that there is a maximum amount that companies can get through grants for 3 years. I can't find anything about this online at the moment however.

For those who have gotten company Electric Vehicles, have any gone down the leasing route? Would it make more sense to purchase outright? I can see there are options for the company to write off up to 24k in year one if it is purchased.

Also, am i correct that the home charging grant would not apply in this case so i would need to pay the full €750 to install one at home for the company car?
 

Zenith63

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835
We have a few EVs in work and generally finance them rather than leasing.

And yeah home charger grant is not available to businesses. Best to get the company to pay for it though as part of your deal so it is out of your ore-tax income. It’s €750 is about the cheapest you’ll get a home charger in for, if your setup is anyway complex it may end up costing more.
 

mathepac

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The main problem there is there are few alternatives for the transport and haulage sector. There are a number of trials of hydrogen fuel cell powered trucks and buses across Europe and further afield, but mass-scale viability is still a long way off there.
One viable, environmentally friendly and low-cost alternative in use in North America is water or methanol injection systems for HGVs - I'm not sure about buses. This reduces particulate and noxious emissions while improving diesel mileage and is potentially far more cost-effective and environmentally friendly that EV trucks and buses.

A medium to long-term test (on light-commercials?) would seem sensible in our case, but like sheep no doubt we'll just follow the vested interests.
 

Leo

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water or methanol injection systems for HGVs

It's water methanol injection, it uses both, even though it's just called methanol injection a lot of the time. It improves power and fuel efficiency, but not to the point where it becomes a compelling argument.

I'm not sure why you bring vested interests into it though. there isn't a single single option for transport energy, current of future, that isn't being pushed by vested interests. For decades the fossil fuel vested interests bought and kept secret developments that would improve efficiency, strip CO2 from exhaust gas and even developments of fuel cells in the '60s, all while actively lobbying governments not to fund research in those areas.
 

mathepac

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In the short to medium term there is no way to break the dependency of HGVs or buses on diesel fuel. I'm suggesting that doing something that has proven beneficial elsewhere is better than doing nothing.

At this point anyone who does significant mileage in a diesel car has no EV alternative; neither do truckers. Do we sit on our hands or look at incentivising HGV owners high-mileage diesel car owners to make some change that will save fuel, thereby reducing emissions?

Water or H2O injection is usually the preserve of diesel engines where water injected into the exhaust manifold reduces NOx emissions but may increase particulates in exhaust gases.

Water and methanol injection is used in petrol engines (also in NOS, LPG and bioethanol powered vehicles) to increase power when using ordinary fuel from the pump. This can raise the RON from 95 to 110 or so.

Reprogramming an engine's ECU can increase power output or fuel consumption depending on the parameters that are changed
 

Leo

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doing something that has proven beneficial elsewhere is better than doing nothing.

There are multiple trials of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles underway. Long term, these off a lot more than stretching diesel.

Water or H2O injection is usually the preserve of diesel engines where water injected into the exhaust manifold reduces NOx emissions but may increase particulates in exhaust gases.

It seems the consensus is that EGR is a better, more reliable option.
 

mathepac

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7,431
Long term, these off a lot more than stretching diesel.
I emphasised short to medium term instead of doing nothing. Don't discount interim solutions.

I have frequently bypassed EGR valves on engines, improving performance and still passing the NCT. It's a do nothing technology rather like catalytic converters on diesel engines.
 

Max Weber

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51
Dacia expected to bring out a cheap electric car by 2021/2022. Its similar to the K-WE in china but they have to upgrade it to meet european standards.

Seems like it could shake up the market.

I just wonder how reliable it would be? How long would the battery last before it needs to be replaced?

Almost seems too good to be true.
 

losttheplot

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416
One year with an Electric Vehicle:
I have had an electric vehicle for a full year now so I thought I'd give a summary of ownership / costs for anyone who's interested.

Model: Hyundai Kona, 64 kW battery, stated range of 450km.
Cost: 38k
Mileage: 23,000 km
Current Value: Only 19 cars showing for sale on carzone (191 reg). Price ranges from 34k - 38k. No sign of massive depreciation, but hard to judge as availability of both new and second hand is still low. Could all be meaningless given the economic turmoil. Anyway I view the resale value as being relative to the cost of upgrading.
Tax: €120
Insurance: No change when insurance transferred.
Servicing: €59. Serviced at 15,000 km. Really just an inspection and a wash.
Charger installation: Charger approx €600 and €400 installation, recouped €600 grant. Cheaper chargers are available but went for one with load balancing and a tethered cable. Change to night rate meter was free.
Running Cost: All home charging is done on night rate (€0.078 per kWh + 13.5% Vat = 0.09 per kWh). Average consumption is 14kWh/100km, so that's €1.26 per 100km (total cost this year = €290.) This is probably an overestimate as it doesn't include the free charging I did. Employer has now installed free chargers, so this could potentially go to zero. Also get a reduced toll rate.
Public Charging: Haven't used a public charger since November. Since charging for fast chargers was introduced, availability doesn't seem to be much of an issue anymore.
Battery Life and Range: Range changes depending on driving style. Commute to work is mostly 80km/h road and then through town at 50km/h. Just doing this, range can be around 500km during the warmer weather and dropping to 440km in winter. Some typical motorway driving brings this down to around 400km. Longest journey was a 420km round trip (no recharging). Have never run flat.
No sign of battery degradation, still able to charge to 100%.
 

Zenith63

Registered User
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835
I really hope two positive things to come out of this Coronavirus situation are:

1. The government realise they could solve the traffic situation in our cities by incentivising companies to have more workers work-from-home. It’s critical that companies, not individuals, are incentivised because it’s companies generally blocking it, because of security/productivity/inertia. Reduce employer’s PRSI or something like that.

2. We realise that we can have the current levels of clean air and low noise on our roads, even during rush hour traffic, if we just stop buying petrol/diesel cars.

There’s a real opportunity here, while the vast improvements in (certain areas of) quality-of-life are fresh in everyone’s minds!
 

kceire

Registered User
Messages
443
Then the lower servicing and insurance and tax!
My Fully Comp full fat policy is €283 on the i3.
Tax at €120 and I haven't spent a penny on maintenance. Although its due its biannual service in August and that will be about €280 for a glorified look over with brake fluids and micro filter change. Yes I could do it cheaper, but its very little to keep a main dealer service history.

Added to workplace charging, id say i've spent less than €50 on electricity charging over the last 4 years :)
 
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