Eirgrid almost ran short of electricity last week

[AlbacoreA]

I would hate to see a hatchet job done by the media and other vested interests on emerging renewable technologies as we are seeing here.

The anti cycling agenda in the media has really held progress on that back many decades.

None of these things are perfect solutions in themselves. There is a place for conventional energies for a long time, and perhaps until it runs out.
But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[horusd]

"This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974! I recall hearing that it used to get called up during the ad break in Glenroe back in the late '80's as a million households turned on their kettle to make a cup of tea."@RedOnion.

I think this method featured on Eco-Eye specifically because the owners converted an open-style quarry and used wind energy to pump up the water in a kind of closed system. In effect, a number of birds were killed with one stone (apologies to bird lovers) inasmuch as an unsightly quarry was repurposed and turned into a useful store of energy similar to Turlough hill. I really like the idea of centralized control to manage the power supply. As a matter of interest, one of the Eco-eye docs this year was from inside Eirgrid in D4. As this is a huge issue going forward, it really needs to be tackled at many levels from micro to macro, including the big polluters of agri-business and personal transport etc.

 

[joe sod]

This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974!

Of course it has to do with renewables, because our whole electricity supply policy is now based around wind power, it's supposed to supply 40% of our total generating capacity now, That is why we are closing the Midlands stations because of this 40% we are supposed to be getting from wind, it all looks great on paper and that's the problem. The reality is that 40% was not available when supply was critical. To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .

Yes we have had power cuts before but because of damage to the network , never because the grid was unable to meet supply, when that happens it is much more serious because then the grid can completely fail as happened in New York a decade ago as power stations are knocked out like dominoes as demand surges.

 

[Nermal]

Why our how do you think decarbonisation will make us significantly poorer?

I should have been more specific: decarbonising just electricity generation alone will make us significantly poorer, because we'll have to spend more to generate the same amount of power. As for decarbonising how we travel, eat, construct, manufacture...

One of the interesting ways to overcome the power storage problem was featured a few months ago on eco eye. Essentially, pump water uphill ( from a former quarry) then hydro power created when needed.

Great. All you have to do to is build the largest pumped-hydro installation in the world. And then another one. And another one after that.

Now you've bought us 24 hours.

At current consumption levels.

So let's hope our windless days come now, instead of when our entire fleet is electric and every home and building has a heat pump...

A reduction in wealth versus total destruction.... kind of hard to take you seriously

Right back at you!

 

[horusd]

@Nermal al The solution to the power supply and the carbon crisis will, as eminent scientists and economists suggested, involve a battery of solutions - pun intended. The creative reimagining needed to bring this about will involve innovative energy conservation and supply responses.

There is a gun pointed at our heads in the form of chaotic climate change, which may reach a point of no return - if it hasn't already. A point where humanity, regardless of what it does, cannot stop it. It will entail massive economic, societal and political consequences, perhaps even war and unconstrained migration. One thing for sure is, going on as we are isn't an option. The chickens are heading home to roost.

 

[PGF2016]

I should have been more specific: decarbonising just electricity generation alone will make us significantly poorer, because we'll have to spend more to generate the same amount of power.

Significantly poorer? Everything I read and hear indicates the opposite. A quick Google brings up the following:

Solar is now the 'cheapest electricity in history', report says - triple j

"I see solar becoming the new king of the world's electricity markets."

www.abc.net.au

Wind and solar plants will soon be cheaper than coal in all big markets around world, analysis finds | Renewable energy | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

"That’s the analysis of BloombergNEF, which predicts a tipping point in five years when it will be more expensive to operate an existing coal or natural gas power plant than to build new solar or wind farms."

[broken link removed]

 

[RedOnion]

To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .

Firstly, I'm not an climate change activist that says we should be pushing for more renewables. But let's put this in context. Last week there was 1 Amber alert. It got attention because it happened just before a small peat powered plant got shutdown permanently. There were technical failures at 3 separate power plants, each one of those having a bigger capacity than the plants being decommissioned.

There were 21 Amber alerts during the course of 2006, when renewables made up a much smaller portion of our energy supply. They were primarily to do with technical failures in power stations, not wind.

There's nothing new about getting close to the edge. Just media cycles picking it up.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Of course it has to do with renewables, because our whole electricity supply policy is now based around wind power, it's supposed to supply 40% of our total generating capacity now, That is why we are closing the Midlands stations because of this 40% we are supposed to be getting from wind, it all looks great on paper and that's the problem. The reality is that 40% was not available when supply was critical. To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .

Yes we have had power cuts before but because of damage to the network , never because the grid was unable to meet supply, when that happens it is much more serious because then the grid can completely fail as happened in New York a decade ago as power stations are knocked out like dominoes as demand surges.

We didn't have a power cut due to the "grid" this time either.

Since periods of low wind are expected. I assume they plan for this.
They also plan for multiple failures of conventional generation, since its probably not uncommon.
We've had these peaks before. So again predictable.

I can't really see how any of this was a surprise, and unplanned for.
or how we can blame it on renewable's that we weren't relying on anyway.

Nov 6, 1999,

The crisis began at lunchtime, when it emerged that minor problems in up to six generating stations were causing a further 40 megawatts of power to be lost. A failed water-cooling pump at the Aghada generating station in Co Cork resulted in the loss of a further 150 megawatts.


By 2 p.m. the ESB was aware that it needed 25 megawatts of electricity it did not have. The contingency plan in such circumstances involves zoned power cuts across the State. The board was within minutes of introducing power cuts when maintenance workers at Aghada completed the repairs and got the generator back into operation.

Dark days of power cuts may make return

Hang on to your millennium candle - you may need it in the 21st century unless the ESB can come to grips with a power-generating…

www.irishtimes.com

 

[fidelcastro]

I thought the wind turbines could be powered by gas in the event there was no wind.

I concur. You've lost the plot on this thread I'm afraid,

 

[Leo]

Data centres are the new opportunity for Ireland without the acknowledgement that they are massive electricity consumers.

That simply just isn't true, the power demands of data centers has been well know for decades. Do you think the likes of Amazon and Google would invest the sums they have been in developing data centres here on a vague hope the wind will continue to blow?

 

[Leo]

Of course it has to do with renewables, because our whole electricity supply policy is now based around wind power, it's supposed to supply 40% of our total generating capacity now,

Where to start. The 40% target is for all renewables, and is not a point in time measure.

That is why we are closing the Midlands stations because of this 40% we are supposed to be getting from wind, it all looks great on paper and that's the problem. The reality is that 40% was not available when supply was critical. To say it's nothing to do with renewables is a denial of reality .

It does look great on paper, I suspect you haven't read it though! Have a read of the current Generation Capacity Statement and the Transmission Development Plan. You'll be amazed to find they understand the wind doesn't always blow at the desired speed.

 

[rob oyle]

That simply just isn't true, the power demands of data centers has been well know for decades. Do you think the likes of Amazon and Google would invest the sums they have been in developing data centres here on a vague hope the wind will continue to blow?

Amazon and Google invest in data centres because it's one of the ways they grow their offerings/business/revenues. How they are powered is a secondary consideration for them, albeit they know how to get good PR for the heat waste from the centres: https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2020/1214/1184348-amazon-heating/

And I was referring to political groupings, like the Green Party, which suggest at every turn that there are massive (job) opportunities in the likes of ICT and renewable energy ventures if we're only willing to make that step. Given the immediate need for climate action, energy rationing is likely to be part of what we'll need to do in the more immediate future, rather than dreaming that we can continue to consume as we do and still cut our emissions appropriately. That is the kind of lack of acknowledgement I meant.

 

[joe sod]

Have a read of the current Generation Capacity Statement and the Transmission Development Plan. You'll be amazed to find they understand the wind doesn't always blow at the desired speed.

I had a read of some of that report , obviously its very detailed and very comprehensive, its not produced for joe public but for people who's job it is to read it and reference it when something goes wrong. The one thing that stood out for me was the term "dispatchable generation" which is important

"Sources of electricity that can be used on demand and dispatched at the request of power grid operators, according to market needs. Does not include wind and solar generation which are nondispatchable generation. "

So wind and solar can not be called upon when needed. Dispatchable generation is basically conventional generation including interconnectors , however the graph they produced of "dispatchable generation" is 10GW now and upto 2025 however this falls to 8GW in 2025 explained by the closure of Moneypoint. So obviously going to be a major problem when the critical supply problem that happened recently was because Moneypoint was knocked out.

Methinks they cannot close Moneypoint , its either power cuts or a new report.

 

[Zenith63]

Joe do you genuinely feel you’ve spotted something so basic that all the professionals in EirGrid, who spend all day every day thinking about this stuff have not realised and considered? I’m not saying these organisations never make mistakes, but there’s no history of it in this space and this stuff is just simple math, there’s no subjectivity to it.

 

[Leo]

Amazon and Google invest in data centres because it's one of the ways they grow their offerings/business/revenues. How they are powered is a secondary consideration for them, albeit they know how to get good PR for the heat waste from the centres:

It's clear you've never been involved in an infrastructure project. Uptime is one of the foremost considerations in datacenter planning. Running a datacenter of the scale Amazon and Google are building on generator power is not cheap or viable for anything other than a rare and brief interruption. These companies do not chose a location without assurances on supply.

 

[Leo]

I had a read of some of that report , obviously its very detailed and very comprehensive, its not produced for joe public but for people who's job it is to read it and reference it when something goes wrong.

To say it's written for people to quote when something goes wrong is laughable, but it is clearly written for people who understand the topic. You're not the target audience.

however the graph they produced of "dispatchable generation" is 10GW now and upto 2025 however this falls to 8GW in 2025 explained by the closure of Moneypoint. So obviously going to be a major problem when the critical supply problem that happened recently was because Moneypoint was knocked out.

Can you explain why with the detail you have on supply mix and demand projections?

 

[Sadim]

"This has nothing to do with renewables. The issue had always existed, and is the very reason that Turlogh Hill exists. The pumped hydro facility there has been operational since 1974! I recall hearing that it used to get called up during the ad break in Glenroe back in the late '80's as a million households turned on their kettle to make a cup of tea."@RedOnion.

I think this method featured on Eco-Eye specifically because the owners converted an open-style quarry and used wind energy to pump up the water in a kind of closed system. In effect, a number of birds were killed with one stone (apologies to bird lovers) inasmuch as an unsightly quarry was repurposed and turned into a useful store of energy similar to Turlough hill. I really like the idea of centralized control to manage the power supply. As a matter of interest, one of the Eco-eye docs this year was from inside Eirgrid in D4. As this is a huge issue going forward, it really needs to be tackled at many levels from micro to macro, including the big polluters of agri-business and personal transport etc.

Its gas really (no pun intended). We have a number of high carbon emitting sectors and they are absolved of all responsibility..... think agri, aviation, shipping. Instead the answer is to slap on carbon taxes on Joe Public to pay for everything. There should be some effort at "polluter pays". I read somewhere that the national dairy herd has expanded by 40% since 2010 since the dropping of milk quotas. 40% is a huge number. And its even worse, that expansion in dairy is purposed to make dairy powder for middle-class Chinese babies! Yet the rest of us will carry the emissions burden out of these commercial interests. At least with coal/peat it heated our homes etc but all I can see from the agri sector is ballooning commercial interests with taking commensurate responsibility for climate change??

 

[Leo]

And its even worse, that expansion in dairy is purposed to make dairy powder for middle-class Chinese babies!

The expansion is producer driven, and the co-op legacy means Glanbia (and perhaps others) are obliged to accept everything their producers send them. Finding markets for all that product has been a challenge.

 

[rob oyle]

It's clear you've never been involved in an infrastructure project. Uptime is one of the foremost considerations in datacenter planning. Running a datacenter of the scale Amazon and Google are building on generator power is not cheap or viable for anything other than a rare and brief interruption. These companies do not chose a location without assurances on supply.

Fair enough, that's their business case. It doesn't make any allowances for the influence of the data centres on the domestic electricity supply and this thread is not about the justification of data centres, but the record amount of energy we're using, several decades into a climate crisis.

 

[rob oyle]

The expansion is producer driven, and the co-op legacy means Glanbia (and perhaps others) are obliged to accept everything their producers send them. Finding markets for all that product has been a challenge.

The expansion is industry driven, with the current strategy agreed by a committee of 35 stakeholders from the agri-food sector. Glanbia et al, as private companies, have no obligations to purchase dairy output from Irish farmers and it is only through the largesse of successive Governments here that the ill-conceived promotion of Irish dairy in Asia occurs.