Dozens sympathise with sex offender

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3) Why are decent law-abiding men with no history of sexual misbehaviour - from groups of sportsmen to armies - capable of indulging in gang rape given the opportunity?

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I've often wondered that myself and it is a valid thing to discuss but not on this particular thread because it refers to one specific clear cut case.
 
Sad sad story - it's almost so bizarre that I can't help thinking there is something else to this story. But I can only go on the facts given and it is chilling to read them.

The discussion seems to have drifted a bit into where the line for personal responsibility lies. I think we would all agree that a victim has to share blame where, for example, they walk down O Connell Street late at night with cash hanging out of their back pocket and get robbed. Of course it is a crime they were robbed, but they surely share some of the blame for that. But, I think we all (except Yorky??) agree that in no circumstances whatsoever is a victim to share blame where a sexual assault takes place. It is deeply repugnant to suggest otherwise.
 
Originally Posted by Yorky
3) Why are decent law-abiding men with no history of sexual misbehaviour - from groups of sportsmen to armies - capable of indulging in gang rape given the opportunity?

WE are all CAPBALE of many things including rape,muder etc,but most of us are normal decent law abiding people..
just because we are capable of doing something doesnt mean we should do so given the opportunity.

Decent law abiding men with no history of sexual misbehaviour would NOT be capable of indulging in gang rape given the opportunity.
 
I have written to the Minister for Justice and to local TDs asking for an explanation for the disgusting court scenes associated with this brave woman's case, asking specifically what the responsibilities of the Guards, Prison Service and Courts Service are in relation to the public having contact with and access to a convict in custody in open court.

There is no such thing as a defendants dock in jury courts in Ireland - having a defendant secured in a dock is a feature of the British justice system. At most, there may be some seating reserved for the defendant on one side of the courtroom, but there is little in the way of physical separation from the public etc. In some circumstances, particularly where the defendant is on bail (and so not in custody), they can sit among the public. If the defendant is in custody, they'll sit in the defendant's reserved seating and Prison Officers will sit nearby to ensure they dont do a runner. Handcuffs or any other restraining devices are not permitted.

The reason being is that in Ireland, all defendants in court are persumed innocent unless they are found guilty at the conclusion of the case. If the defendant is in a secure dock, handcuffs etc. it may influence the jury into to thinking the defendant is guilty as it gives the impression that the person is a criminal - remembering that they are not a criminal until they are convicted and have the right to be persumed innocent unless proven otherwise.

Now, its different in certain non-jury Courts. As there is no jury in a non-jury court, there are no concerns re: influencing the jury. In non-jury custody District Courts, you will some times see an enclosed defendants area physically separated from the public etc. by a large toughen glass screen. You'll also see this in the non-jury higher courts (where you have 3 Judges rather than a jury) that handle terrorism and serious crime such as the Special Criminal Court and Court of Criminal Appeal.
 
@ thedaras & Yorky

...furthermore, to add further controversy perhaps to the thread, many sportsmen and army members are hardly the best example.

Very high proportion of thugs make up their ranks in many cases IMO & E.
 
Of course there is blame on the male's part but what sanction is there against the female who is inebriated to the extent where she is not compos mentis? That in itself is a criminal offence and rightly so.

No woman deserves to be sexually assaulted but if she is under the influence of alcohol she is exposing herself to increased risk and must take some of the blame herself.

I think my post has been misinterpreted. I meant that due to the intrinsic predatory nature of the male species under the influence of alcohol to lessen restraint, reason and inihibition, if a person - in this case a woman who is normally physically weaker - is under the influence of the same substance then quite obviously they are exposing themselves to increased risk. ...
Your post was not misinterpreted. You were trying (unsuccessfully) to backtrack.

Alright so man gets drunk and woman gets drunk and then engage in drunken intimacy. Result: man is totally to blame.
Right.
I would like to nominate this for AAM idiotic post of the year.
Yorky, it is horrific that you cannot tell the difference between intimacy and rape.

This is my last post on this ...
Good!
 
There is no such thing as a defendants dock in jury courts in Ireland - having a defendant secured in a dock is a feature of the British justice system. At most, there may be some seating reserved for the defendant on one side of the courtroom, but there is little in the way of physical separation from the public etc. In some circumstances, particularly where the defendant is on bail (and so not in custody), they can sit among the public. If the defendant is in custody, they'll sit in the defendant's reserved seating and Prison Officers will sit nearby to ensure they dont do a runner. Handcuffs or any other restraining devices are not permitted.

The reason being is that in Ireland, all defendants in court are persumed innocent unless they are found guilty at the conclusion of the case. If the defendant is in a secure dock, handcuffs etc. it may influence the jury into to thinking the defendant is guilty as it gives the impression that the person is a criminal - remembering that they are not a criminal until they are convicted and have the right to be persumed innocent unless proven otherwise.
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But my understanding is that he was already conviced of the offence and the court hearing was to do with sentencing. Therefore is has already been found guilty and was in police custody. I find it amazing that member of the general public (or 50 of them in this case) can walk to to a conviceted person. What if someone passed him something? What is someone who supported the victim attacked him (he would be suing the state more than likely).
 
Yorky, it is horrific that you cannot tell the difference between intimacy and rape.

He was coinviced of sexual assult, not rape......but you point still stand, there is a huge difference between a druken intimacy and being left almost unconcious, covered in cuts and bruises & naked from the the waist down
 
But my understanding is that he was already conviced of the offence and the court hearing was to do with sentencing. Therefore is has already been found guilty and was in police custody. I find it amazing that member of the general public (or 50 of them in this case) can walk to to a conviceted person. What if someone passed him something? What is someone who supported the victim attacked him (he would be suing the state more than likely).

You may be right. Was this a pure sentencing hearing, or was the verdict given the same day? The other issue is that very few courthouses outside the main cities have high security facilities & rural politicians dont like the cases to be moved to one of the cities.
 
Roland - I don't want to get off the point, but you say I think we would all agree that a victim has to share blame where, for example, they walk down O Connell Street late at night with cash hanging out of their back pocket and get robbed. Of course it is a crime they were robbed, but they surely share some of the blame for that.

This is the same argument Yorky is using that the victim must take some of the blame. Am I not allowed walk down O'Connell St at night with money in my pocket?
 
I love all the people on the phone-ins yesterday getting really angry about this story. I may be making a generalisation here, but you could just tell some of the people who phoned in would be the 'altar rail kissers' and who can't see no wrong in the Church and all its recent sins.

And talking generally about sexual crimes, why is it that tens of thousands are prepared to take to the streets to protest about losing a few % off their wages yet when hundreds and possibly thousands of adult priests rape and abuse children there isn't a single march anywhere in this country?

Sorry for going off tangent.
 
Roland - I don't want to get off the point, but you say I think we would all agree that a victim has to share blame where, for example, they walk down O Connell Street late at night with cash hanging out of their back pocket and get robbed. Of course it is a crime they were robbed, but they surely share some of the blame for that.

This is the same argument Yorky is using that the victim must take some of the blame. Am I not allowed walk down O'Connell St at night with money in my pocket?

But you can't compare the 2 - what if the person had €100 hanging out of his pocket and someone came, took the money & proceeded to beat up the victim.

You might say they were naive, silly etc for having the money hanging out of their pocket - but would you say they have to accept some the blame for being assulted? Absolutely not !
 
why is it that tens of thousands are prepared to take to the streets to protest about losing a few % off their wages yet when hundreds and possibly thousands of adult priests rape and abuse children there isn't a single march anywhere in this country?

Good point.
 
The priest in question has withdrawn duites in his parish after meeting with the bishop this morning.

A good start, 1 down 49 to go.
 
Roland - I don't want to get off the point, but you say I think we would all agree that a victim has to share blame where, for example, they walk down O Connell Street late at night with cash hanging out of their back pocket and get robbed. Of course it is a crime they were robbed, but they surely share some of the blame for that.

This is the same argument Yorky is using that the victim must take some of the blame. Am I not allowed walk down O'Connell St at night with money in my pocket?

Theres no comparison here - you may be silly enough to have your money robbed, but if you were then assaulted, would you feel you had attracted the assault?

Personal injury, whether it be a pure physical assault, or a sexual attack - can never be justified by apportioning blame to the victim.
 
I as a female would not walk down the street at night on my own fully clothed, because I know that I increase the risk to myself of an attack.

I hate this attitude. this is what indoctrines into women that they are the weaker sex and always should play the victim. We should be striving for a society where no woman should be afraid to walk anywhere she wants, whenever she wants. It really annoys me that men are never forced to think about things like this and as long as that is the case it will never be an equal society. Women should be absolutely outraged that society deems it acceptable that they would not be safe walking down a street alone at night. Also I believe that women need to be taught about their own strengths and made to believe in them..there are many women out there who could beat the living daylights out of some of the scumbags who try to attack them.
 
I'm not trying to compare the two. Of course a sexual attack is more serious.

I'm just making the point that I think it is wrong to apportion blame to the victim of any crime for the crime committed against them.
 
Roland - I don't want to get off the point, but you say I think we would all agree that a victim has to share blame where, for example, they walk down O Connell Street late at night with cash hanging out of their back pocket and get robbed. Of course it is a crime they were robbed, but they surely share some of the blame for that.

This is the same argument Yorky is using that the victim must take some of the blame. Am I not allowed walk down O'Connell St at night with money in my pocket?

Of course you are allowed to walk down O'Connell St at night with money hanging out of your pocket, but I think you share some blame if you are then robbed. Similarly if you leave your house with all the doors and windows open, then you share some blame if it is robbed. Your insurance company will agree with this point of view.

I drew a clear distinction between this and sexual assault.
 
@ thedaras & Yorky

...furthermore, to add further controversy perhaps to the thread, many sportsmen and army members are hardly the best example.

Very high proportion of thugs make up their ranks in many cases IMO & E.

Caveat why you putting me in the same sentence as yorky!! What I do to deserve that??
I have in no way agreed with anything at all which was posted by yorky...:confused:
 
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