Does adopting a position of neutrality mean not caring who wins?

[Purple]

It's a threat to European countries as along as it considers Europe a threat to it.

Utter nonsense.

No, but this is just infantile back and forth, as if Europe and the US do not engage in their own methods of election interference, cyber-warfare etc.

Whataboutery.

We wont know for certain until we apply for membership, hopefully never.

We know now.

Same reason why most navies map underwater infrastructure.

Which is?

You need to ask @Itchy who said that NATO prevents all those things. I simply provided examples where it has failed to prevent such things.

No, you were quite clear in what you said so I'm asking you.

Obviously what you consider to be 'pro-Western' probably aligns with supporting people like this https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/time-to-join-nato.242524/#post-1973062

A false comparison falicy.

I'm pro-Western and pro-Russian.

You can't be both. The West it democratic and Russia is Totalitarian. Russia sees democracy as a threat, as do all totalitarian States.

There is simply no good cause for this current conflict.

I agree. Russia should withdraw to it's border, apologise, disarm, and pay restitution to Ukraine.

A peace-deal was agreed prior to the invasion until the Briish, batting on behalf on NATO, scuppered it.

Nonsense.

This is about control of resources that is all, as it always it.

I agree. Russia invaded in order to take control of Ukraine's vast Gas reserved and continue to make the EU dependent on Russian Gas.

The pro-Western view would be to compete in the energy supply markets in free trade. Our 'allies' in the US attacked European infrastructure to prevent this.

How do they attack European Infrastructure?

 

[Purple]

Russian drone attack on Polish Airport

Russia attempts to murder commuters by blowing up train line in Poland.

Russian drones pass within 500m of Irish Naval ship.

Rogue drones during Zelenskiy visit part of ‘co-ordinated threat’ to Europe, says Minister

‘We are under attack’: Italian defense minister accuses Russia of waging hybrid war


Russian agents are mapping road and rail bridges and communications cables at sea and on land all across Europe. Good article in todays Financial Times (behind paywall). It is wilfully naive to think that Russia is not attacking the EU (that includes Ireland).

 

[Sister Sara]

Utter nonsense.

The West it democratic and Russia is Totalitarian. Russia sees democracy as a threat, as do all totalitarian States.

So, would Russia see Europe as a threat? Or do you think it is utter nonsense?

Putin says Russia is ready for war if Europe wants it

No, you were quite clear in what you said so I'm asking you.

If I was quite clear why are you asking questions?
My initial comment referred specifically to actual incidents that NATO failed to prevent - Salisbury, the election of Donald Trump in 2016.

The West it democratic and Russia is Totalitarian

I was speaking in terms of values of Russian people and Western people. None of whom voted for this war.

Russians couldnt, and US population specifically elected a President to end this, and other wars.

Instead they bankrolled Ukraine to keep fighting as they bankrolled an attempt to commit genocide in Gaza, placed sanctions on UN rapporteur Francesa Albanese, an EU citizen.

Placed sanctions on ICC prosecutor and willfully ignore international law by hosting Netenyahu in Washington who is wanted for war crimes. Then they put a former Al Qaeda member in charge of Syria and do a $600m weapons deal with the Saudis whose leader was implicated by US intell in the brutal murder of US citizen Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi Consulate in Turkey.

Now they are threatening military strikes against Venezuela and carrying out summary executions of alleged drug smugglers in international waters.

Are these the Western 'values' you laud? They are not mine. I am pro-Western, and US foreign policy is trampling all over Western values.

As mentioned in a previous thread, we are being talked more and more into war. The same hyperbole was used in advance of the illegal invasion of Iraq, it was used to try derail Trumps first election bid, and now Europeans are being brow-beaten with story after story of how Russia is doing this, Russia is doing that....and all along I thought NATO was supposed to be able to prevent this?

Any decent defence and intell agency would go about its business of security and defence covertly without scare-mongering the public. When the stories are making the headlines the public are being prepped for worse to come.

France orders hospitals to be ready for war in six months time
Defence Forces 'aware' of Russian spy ship's movements

 

[Sister Sara]

It is wilfully naive to think that Russia is not attacking the EU (that includes Ireland).

Well thankfully NATO is here to prevent it?

What is the point of NATO if Russia can attack the EU like this?

Which is it @Purple? Is Russia a threat to Europe or is its military 'not at the races' compared to the Americans, who have many military bases stationed throughout Europe?

 

[Purple]

Your last post is full of false equivalences and nonsense. It’s not coherent enough to respond to.

Well thankfully NATO is here to prevent it?

Yes, thankfully, it can’t prevent all attacks on its members but it can prevent most. I’d prefer if the EU didn’t need NATO to protect it but thanks to people like you we will continue to be beholding to the US and Trump.

What is the point of NATO if Russia can attack the EU like this?

You know the answer to that. I’m not engaging in such a stupid conversation.

Which is it @Purple? Is Russia a threat to Europe or is its military 'not at the races' compared to the Americans,

Both.

who have many military bases stationed throughout Europe?

And thanks to people like you that will continue to be the case. You’re Putins apologist and Trumps enabler. Well done!

 

[Sister Sara]

No disrespect @Purple but you persistently talk out both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand the suggestion that Russia considers Europe a threat (as reported widely recently) you consider it 'utter nonsense'.

Then, in the very same post you proclaim that Russia (a totalitarian state) considers democracy (Western values) a threat!

Which is it? Does Russia consider Europe a threat or is it 'utter nonsense'?

Should anyone dare consider the Russian position is tantamount to 'Putin's puppet'! That's exactly what your American masters (as you have admitted yourself, they are your master) want you to parrot.
Have you ever considered you are NATO's puppet?

By your own admission the US dominates NATO, an organisation that you would prefer did not have control over European defences.

And yet when you are asked why NATO cannot defend its members against the media-feuled Russia phobia that you present here, you throw a tantrum!

Best to leave it here I think.

 

[losttheplot]

and US population specifically elected a President to end this, and other wars.

I'm not too sure about that. Trump die hards would vote for him no matter what he promised. His solution to end the war is for Ukraine to give in to Putin.
The current US administration show how important it is for the EU to have an integrated defence force and and defence industry. I emphasis 'Defence'. An EU defence force should not be involved in missions outside the EU.

 

[Purple]

No disrespect @Purple but you persistently talk out both sides of your mouth.

On the one hand the suggestion that Russia considers Europe a threat (as reported widely recently) you consider it 'utter nonsense'.

Then, in the very same post you proclaim that Russia (a totalitarian state) considers democracy (Western values) a threat!

Europe will not attack Russia. Therefore Europe is not a threat to Russia. Russia has and will attacked Europe and therefore is a threat to Europe. Democratic values are always a threat to totalitarianism. I find it hard to believe that you don’t already know all that.

Which is it? Does Russia consider Europe a threat or is it 'utter nonsense'?

The notion that Russia considers Europe a military or political threat is nonsense. The idea that they fear a military attack from Europe is nonsense. It does consider the democratic values and freedom that Europe and Europeans enjoy a threat. That’s why they have and are attacking Europe.

Should anyone dare consider the Russian position is tantamount to 'Putin's puppet'!

No, anyone who blames the US for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and consistently inserts pro Russian talking points into online discussions is a Putin puppet.

That's exactly what your American masters (as you have admitted yourself, they are your master) want you to parrot.

I’ve never said that they are my master. That’s a complete falsehood.

Have you ever considered you are NATO's puppet?

I’m not a fan of NATO and want a strong EU alternative.

By your own admission the US dominates NATO, an organisation that you would prefer did not have control over European defences.

Yes, not what NATO wants.

And yet when you are asked why NATO cannot defend its members against the media-feuled Russia phobia that you present here, you throw a tantrum!

More nonsense and wilful misrepresentation of what I said.

Best to leave it here I think.

Agreed.

 

[Sister Sara]

I'm not too sure about that. Trump die hards would vote for him no matter what he promised. His solution to end the war is for Ukraine to give in to Putin.

That's a fair point.

I'm only guessing of course, but I sense that Americans are fed up with $billions persistently being available and pumped into foreign wars whereas the living standard of those that work in the industrial base has been gutted, there is unaffordable health insurance, access to education is costly and a poor basic wage is manifesting amongst a larger, and larger, portion of hard-working people who are law-abiding, educated and faithful to America.

They saw Trump (why? I do not know!) as a means to improve their lives and not the lives of foreign people living in different continents.

Trump was elected by Putin interference in 2016, why would he record such a huge vote both in 2020, and 2024? Are Americans 'Putin puppets' too?

Or is all a little bit more complex than the media headlines with stereotype talking points to feed the fish-farms of the starving trout?

 

[Sister Sara]

Of course no-one has said that 'Europe will attack Russia' as suggested above.

What was said, and reported widely, that Russia considers Europe to be a threat.

So until that subtle nuance is actually understood, and why Russia (rightly or wrongly) may consider Europe a threat, then there is little else to discuss here.

Here is a media link

Putin says Russia is ready for war if Europe wants it

This is an article in a widely read British newspaper amongst others. It is publicising a Putin talking point. Has the British media been captured by Putin by simply reporting the Russian point of view?

It obviously carries some weight as our own Taoiseach responded;

Taoiseach says Putin's 'ready for war' comment is a 'direct threat' to Europe

If only our leader, and other European leaders, had the wisdom and guile as others here have to respond with , "Europe will not attack Russia. Therefore Europe is not a threat to Russia", perhaps it could lead to a softening of tensions and a diplomatic way forward for peace?‍

 

[Purple]

Of course no-one has said that 'Europe will attack Russia' as suggested above.

Then why is Russia attacking Europe?

What was said, and reported widely, that Russia considers Europe to be a threat.

What's the difference?

So until that subtle nuance is actually understood, and why Russia (rightly or wrongly) may consider Europe a threat, then there is little else to discuss here.

What nuance? Russia is attacking Europe. Europe is not attacking Russia.

Here is a media link

Putin says Russia is ready for war if Europe wants it

This is an article in a widely read British newspaper amongst others. It is publicising a Putin talking point. Has the British media been captured by Putin by simply reporting the Russian point of view?

What are you talking about?

It obviously carries some weight as our own Taoiseach responded;

Taoiseach says Putin's 'ready for war' comment is a 'direct threat' to Europe

Yes, Putin is attacking Europe and said he is ready for all out war. That should be taken seriously.
https://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-putin-europe-war-6892235-Dec2025/

If only our leader, and other European leaders, had the wisdom and guile as others here have to respond with , "Europe will not attack Russia. Therefore Europe is not a threat to Russia", perhaps it could lead to a softening of tensions and a diplomatic way forward for peace?‍

Again, what are you talking about?

 

[Purple]

Instead they bankrolled Ukraine to keep fighting as they bankrolled an attempt to commit genocide in Gaza

Just on that. It's such an appalling comment. You seek to establish an equivalence between supporting Ukraine in their fight to stop Putin erasing their country from the map and enslaving them within his totalitarian dictatorship and Israels behaviour in Gaza. Stomach turning.