Discussion: Why are people paying the local property tax (LPT )?
- Thread starter ?guy
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I'll agree and add to this.
We are a democracy with about 4.5m citizens. We have elected successive governments who, apart from from anything else, have made decisions as to the amount of money we are willing to pay for health, education and social welfare. The decisions made provide us with a certain standard of living that is quite high, even by western world standards.
The funny thing is that, as a group, we are not funding our day to day living costs from our own resources / income, but rather borrowing money. Not alone can this not continue forever, but we'll actually have to reduce future living standards to repay borrowings used to maintain current living standards.
Our choices are:
1) continue to prop up current living standards through borrowings at the expense of future generations,
2) Reduce current living standards,
3) Pay more tax.
We are at our internationally acceptable limits on 1) and have elected a government that decides the balance between 2) and 3).
In short, the property tax isn't about fairness, it's about Ireland, as a society, paying its way and this means balancing our taxes against the cost of running the country.
itsallwrong
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Q - Oldnick..
I slightly shudder when people state that one must obey the law because it's the law.
I shake when I hear that mentality !
Just because it's law does not make it right or just !
If anything the burden lumped on the people is against the law!
I slightly shudder when people state that one must obey the law because it's the law.
I shake when I hear that mentality !
Just because it's law does not make it right or just !
If anything the burden lumped on the people is against the law!
mandelbrot
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Sorry that makes no sense - society wouldn't function very well if we all could just pick and choose the laws we agree with and obey them!
In a democracy with freedom of speech, people can organise campaigns and protests against laws/policies they disagree with, and they can use their vote to see change implemented that reflects the democratic majority - that's how I'd have thought democracy is supposed to work anyway?
alanpcarey
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No it wont....they have no idea who has paid or not paid this charge, the councils who were supposed to be collecting these payments have no idea how to go about collecting it or providing to Revenue a list of who hasn't paid, the Database they used was/is flawed.
The household Tax on the other hand although the system is still flawed, ie. People getting letters when they are not the actual property owner etc. and the inflated values of the properties in a lot of cases, this will have to be paid one way or another!
The household Tax on the other hand although the system is still flawed, ie. People getting letters when they are not the actual property owner etc. and the inflated values of the properties in a lot of cases, this will have to be paid one way or another!
mandelbrot
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Looks like you're the one who's dreaming - can you explain how it's an income tax please?
mandelbrot
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Hmmmm, have you been at the sherry these evening?!
It absolutely doesn't tax income.
If I have zero income but I own a house, I'll be liable to pay the tax (though it can be deferred on grounds of insufficient income). That by definition is not a tax on income.
If you think otherwise you'll have to show your workings...!?
Yep, and for once it's being collected from everyone, not just the same small percentage of the population who pay most of the income tax.
I think that meepman's point is that this may not all be used for the amenities in which the property is situated. That is, it is not purely a local property tax.
His other point may be property taxes do take into consideration one's income in so much as the property was bought by the proceeds of income (unless stolen or won).
After all, proponents of property taxes often proclaim that those with dearer properties should pay more than those with cheaper properties because they "can afford it".
The logic of their argument seems to be that due to higher incomes they bought a dearer property and should therefore pay more.
Otherwise why should one with a 500k house pay more than 100k house for the same local amenities.? Does not income play any role in how much one pays ?
Semantically meepman was wrong , but I understand how he made the statement he did..
His other point may be property taxes do take into consideration one's income in so much as the property was bought by the proceeds of income (unless stolen or won).
After all, proponents of property taxes often proclaim that those with dearer properties should pay more than those with cheaper properties because they "can afford it".
The logic of their argument seems to be that due to higher incomes they bought a dearer property and should therefore pay more.
Otherwise why should one with a 500k house pay more than 100k house for the same local amenities.? Does not income play any role in how much one pays ?
Semantically meepman was wrong , but I understand how he made the statement he did..
We are a democracy with about 4.5m citizens. We have elected successive governments who, apart from from anything else, have made decisions as to the amount of money we are willing to pay for health, education and social welfare. The decisions made provide us with a certain standard of living that is quite high, even by western world standards.
The funny thing is that, as a group, we are not funding our day to day living costs from our own resources / income, but rather borrowing money. Not alone can this not continue forever, but we'll actually have to reduce future living standards to repay borrowings used to maintain current living standards.
Our choices are:
1) continue to prop up current living standards through borrowings at the expense of future generations,
2) Reduce current living standards,
3) Pay more tax.
We are at our internationally acceptable limits on 1) and have elected a government that decides the balance between 2) and 3).
In short, the property tax isn't about fairness, it's about Ireland, as a society, paying its way and this means balancing our taxes against the cost of running the country.[/QUOTE]
+1
Excellent analysis of where we are.
Regarding point 1, while our level of borrowing may be at the limit of what is internationally acceptable. I think the thinking behind this acceptability is flawed.
There will be no demographic dividend to reduce the burden of paying this debt. Inflation in the coming years is also unlikely to erode the debt to any significant extent.
The funny thing is that, as a group, we are not funding our day to day living costs from our own resources / income, but rather borrowing money. Not alone can this not continue forever, but we'll actually have to reduce future living standards to repay borrowings used to maintain current living standards.
Our choices are:
1) continue to prop up current living standards through borrowings at the expense of future generations,
2) Reduce current living standards,
3) Pay more tax.
We are at our internationally acceptable limits on 1) and have elected a government that decides the balance between 2) and 3).
In short, the property tax isn't about fairness, it's about Ireland, as a society, paying its way and this means balancing our taxes against the cost of running the country.[/QUOTE]
+1
Excellent analysis of where we are.
Regarding point 1, while our level of borrowing may be at the limit of what is internationally acceptable. I think the thinking behind this acceptability is flawed.
There will be no demographic dividend to reduce the burden of paying this debt. Inflation in the coming years is also unlikely to erode the debt to any significant extent.
Points 2 and 3 in Kaiser's post are pretty well the same thing.
More germane is the fact (well, opinion) that continually increasing taxes -and thus reducing spending - may actually have the opposite effect to that intended.
Without repeating all the pros and cons of austerity as a solution to getting Ireland out of the mire it seems that fewer experts now believe that taxing and taxing the ordinary citizen is the solution to our problems.
And this is separate from the psychological effect that slapping one tax/charge after another has on the people of this country.
I'll pay the wretched LPT because I'm a coward, not because I think it has - at this stage - any merit, nor because I think it's the "democratic" thing to do.
(Democratically, we voted for parties that said they would not impose it !)
That is the whole point of an SVT.
You pay a higher tax if your site value is higher. A SVT ignore the building on the site, and looks at the value of the site itself.
If your site in within 3km, say, of O'Connell street, then your site value is higher, as you have easier access to more publicly-provided amenities.
So you pay a higher SVT property tax.
Of course, the new LPT is not a SVT. It should have been, but of course the Govt took the easier route, and use the property value as the basis for taxation.
Life isn't fair but I'd imagine you can always find something to be happy about instead. I despise paying the tax, I can't influence how the money is spent and I don't have a choice so I'm paying it. Instead I'm trying to divert my energy to concentrate on positive things that make me feel good like being lucky to have good health, a family, friends, the dawn chorus and a lovely sunrise this morning..