debit card fraud € 10,000 withdrawn from current account

Anyone's PIN number can easily be obtained by a fraudster using a doctored terminal. So no matter how careful you are with your PIN, if you use your card in a non-legitimate terminal, a fraudster has your PIN and card details. They can then bypass your purchase and put through a much larger amount, and it will be verified by PIN. The Banks will not cough up for this fraud, as they say the PIN was used, and the customer can't prove that they didn't do the large transaction. The Banks know about this security flaw, but their Terms & Conditions that were introduced with Chip and PIN ensure that the customer will always be liable for this.

This type of fraud is unlikely to happen in Ireland/UK as few high street shops or businesses will be fraudsters. However it is much more likely to happen abroad, for example in some Eastern European countries. This has happened to Irish people, and I know AIB and BoI have not refunded the money.

Way around it? Never use a debit card abroad, always use a credit card. While the same fraud can happen, the bank takes the hit on a credit card, so you will not be left out of pocket if this happens to you.

If anyone doubts that PIN's can be intercepted, watch the BBC's Watchdog investigation and Newsnight report, both on YouTube.
 
It is true that banks do not report suspicious activity on Laser cards. However, you can be lucky.

A relative of mine had her card stolen. Thieves saw her PIN as she used the card in a supermarket and followed her out of the shop. They dipped her bag and look her wallet. ( It is clear that this is what happened, the number was not written down, and they used the card with the PIN immediately)

An hour later, before she had even realised that it had happened, she got a call from the bank. A shop assistant refused a card because the card was being used by a man, and the name of the card was a womans name and rang the bank immediately.

So thanks to the very vigilant shop assistant for saving the day. Some money had been taken, but not a lot before this happened.
 
Question:
If a card is skimmed and the PIN is also obtained, will the skimming work if the card is a Chip and PIN?
Is it possible that the original post had their details obtained via online banking? by a keylogger?
 
roker said:
Question:
If a card is skimmed and the PIN is also obtained, will the skimming work if the card is a Chip and PIN?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Skimming copies the magnetic strip but not the chip. As the chip is required to operate chip and PIN you would also need to somehow clone the chip.
 
roker said:
Question:
If a card is skimmed and the PIN is also obtained, will the skimming work if the card is a Chip and PIN?
Click to expand...

It won't work in Ireland or any country that has introduced chip and pin, but it will work in non chip & pin countries, e.g. Italy or Canada.
 
That is a common one. Scammers tend to do small test transactions to see if a card is good, before making a much bigger one.
Banks tend to be very suspicious of small transactions for that reason.
 
Yes but it was a genuine one. You'd think they'd notice 10k out of a account with almost no transactions.
 
AlbacoreA said:
Yes but it was a genuine one. You'd think they'd notice 10k out of a account with almost no transactions.
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I've heard of a few people who've had money taken from their Laser cards and in all cases, either the owner of the card or the Gardai informed the bank. Anytime there have been suspicious transactions on my credit card, Visa has informed the bank and cancelled the transaction before I noticed. I don't think Laser has the same level of security as credit cards (or indeed debit cards such as Visa debit) because it goes directly to the issuing bank and not via the Visa security center. I could be wrong though.

Blackberry said:
The banks are not insured for this type of loss. Complete rubbish.
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Even if they weren't, absorbing those losses is part of the cost of doing business for them. If people get worried that their cards aren't safe, they'll stop using credit cards and the banks will lose a big cash cow.
 
I do not understand why people use their cards for small amounts; it makes it difficult when you check your statement because your memory will always fail you if you have a lot of transaction on your statement. I personally withdraw large sums from the ATM and pay by cash.
AlbacoreA why would you want to make a €1 transaction?
 
roker said:
I do not understand why people use their cards for small amounts (...) I personally withdraw large sums from the ATM and pay by cash.
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I find that if I withdraw cash, a) I have no idea what I spent it on and b) I spend it on impulse because it's in my pocket. It also stops me losing cash too. I've never made €1 transactions but €5 - €6 for a small shopping would be common.
 
roker said:
I do not understand why people use their cards for small amounts; it makes it difficult when you check your statement because your memory will always fail you if you have a lot of transaction on your statement. I personally withdraw large sums from the ATM and pay by cash.
AlbacoreA why would you want to make a €1 transaction?
Click to expand...

Got a new credit card, old one expired. Same number new date. Online company when updating my details with the new card, did a test transaction. €1. CC company locked the account. I didn't find out for about a week. I thought the new card was dodgy. Seems weird but at least it worked. eFlow 10 months later still couldn't get it corrected on their system. The CC company said it was common enough for companies to test changes to cc details like this. News to me.
 
Firstly - I have absolutely nothing to do with AIB - don't bank with them, never have...

If I understand your 'cough cough' post correctly, are you saying that because Rusnak did what he did, that it's proof positive that AIB staff perpretrated/or were personally involved in the fraud being discussed here - if so, I'd stand over my original post, and say that's a terrible accusation.... IMHO
 
Re: debit card fraud € 10,000 withdrawn from current account

pjmn said:
Firstly - I have absolutely nothing to do with AIB - don't bank with them, never have...

If I understand your 'cough cough' post correctly, are you saying that because Rusnak did what he did, that it's proof positive that AIB staff perpretrated/or were personally involved in the fraud being discussed here - if so, I'd stand over my original post, and say that's a terrible accusation.... IMHO
Click to expand...

It's not terrible because it hasnt been directed against anyone guilty or innocent in particular. You said its ''unbelievable'' as though AIB was some kind of special company above any form of corruption. Given the stench of corruption and scandals in all of the banks I doubt anyone buys that.
Do you still find it ''unbelievable'' that AIB staff are just as likely to be sinners as the rest of humanity ?
 
huskerdu said:
It is true that banks do not report suspicious activity on Laser cards. However, you can be lucky.

A relative of mine had her card stolen. Thieves saw her PIN as she used the card in a supermarket and followed her out of the shop. They dipped her bag and look her wallet. ( It is clear that this is what happened, the number was not written down, and they used the card with the PIN immediately)

An hour later, before she had even realised that it had happened, she got a call from the bank. A shop assistant refused a card because the card was being used by a man, and the name of the card was a womans name and rang the bank immediately.

So thanks to the very vigilant shop assistant for saving the day. Some money had been taken, but not a lot before this happened.
Click to expand...

This has just happened to my mother, except unfortunately no shop assistant intervened.
The scam involved a woman hopping into the passenger seat with a map in her hands outside a supermarket looking for directions, then a minute later the 'husband' knocked at the driver window and asked my mother to give him the directions, while this distraction occurred the woman took my mother's laser card out of her purse. My mother didn't realise anything untoward had happened until 12 hours later.

She then rang the bank to cancel the card and €3k had already been spent, another €1,5k was spent over the weekend.

The bank have now come back to state they won't be re-imbursing any of the money as the PIN was used, my mother didn't have the number written down, it wasn't an obvious number so either she was observed putting in her PIN at the counter or someone in the shop skimmed the number.

To date the Gardai have not bothered to view the CCTV footage of the supermarket, the supermarket are aware that the incident took place so to date have not deleted the material (as far as we're aware).

The official in the Bank who informed my mother that the money would not be re-imbursed advised her to go to the Financial Ombudsman but from reading here previously I thought she would have to exhaust the internal appeals system in the bank? They have also not indicated why money spent following the phonecall cancelling the card has also been refused re-imbursement, nor if any non-PIN transactions were used and if so why these aren't being re-imbursed.

Normally my mother wouldn't have anywhere near that amount of money in her account but she had just come into some money the week before and hadn't transferred it all to savings account.

Any advice on how to challenge the Banks actions?
 
A simple software update [SIZE=-1]could [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]change a 4-digit PIN to a 6-digit PIN. The POS terminal would prompt the [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]customer to enter 3 digits at random [/SIZE][SIZE=-1](ie.1st , 3rd , 6th)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1], [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]con[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]cealing the other 3 making it impossible for the PIN to be [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]comprimised in the manner described.
Simple , minimal cost to implement , and 100% effective.
[/SIZE]
 
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