David McWilliams: "Bitcoin Betrayal"?

Of course I can disagree entirely. Maybe if you have a better explanation of why this categorization needs to change I'd change my mind. However, as it stands right now, that's not the case. I've already articulated the reason why above.
Of course you CAN disagree entirely. You are free to do as you please. But it makes no sense that you DO disagree entirely that there is a category error inherent in comparing an individual cryptocurrency (Bitcoin) with a category of currencies (Fiat).
 
Of course you CAN disagree entirely. You are free to do as you please. But it makes no sense that you DO disagree entirely that there is a category error inherent in comparing an individual cryptocurrency (Bitcoin) with a category of currencies (Fiat).
Duly noted.
 
Isn't the point of innovation to disrupt? If everybody could foresee the impact of innovations then there would not be disruptive innovation.

It is pretty pointless to disregard a persons opinion on a topic because of something they said on another topic and got wrong.

Hindsight is 20:20.

What is clear is we haven't yet seen the rapid adoption and innovation in crypto/bitcoin that we did with the internet. I don't think we will, at the end of the day bitcoin is just a payments system (original intention), there are only so many ways a payment system can change the world.

Yes we can point to RWAs, or that it is still in its infancy, but I don't see how even the strongest proponents of bitcoin don't have their doubts.

A payments system like nothing that has ever existed before.

- Borderless
- Permissionless
- Trustless
- Censorship resistant
- Global
- Decentralised
 
I have certainly learnt that as well as being obtuse, you're condescending and arrogant. ;)
To contextualise: condescending towards people who believe that tulips are infinite , and who do not believe that there is a category error inherent in comparing an individual cryptocurrency with a category of currencies.
 
To contextualise: condescending towards people who believe that tulips are infinite , and who do not believe that there is a category error inherent in comparing an individual cryptocurrency with a category of currencies.
I won't be engaging with you on this further other than to clarify that your scribblings betray the fact that you have little genuine interest in furthering the subject of this discussion and would rather engage in the obtuse. You can come back and twist it this way or that if you like, I'll be responding as above each and every time.
 
I won't be engaging with you on this further other than to clarify that your scribblings betray the fact that you have little genuine interest in furthering the subject of this discussion and would rather engage in the obtuse. You can come back and twist it this way or that if you like, I'll be responding as above each and every time.
Quit while you're behind. First sensible thing you've done in out little chat.
 
A payments system like nothing that has ever existed before.

- Borderless
- Permissionless
- Trustless
- Censorship resistant
- Global
- Decentralised

Those are the attributes of BTC, yet many treat it as an investment product i.e. Michael Saylor has not acquired millions of BTC to facilitate payments. At the same time since BTC was created there has been significant innovation in the payments space that have made it easier for cross-border payments, and payments more broadly.

Trust and censorship are nuanced, the fast majority of people trust central governments or trust them enough not to adopt Bitcoin. The need for government backstops and interventions is still needed in financial markets.

At the end of the day, Bitcoin as a payment system has a novel technology use but it is still just payments. It can't really be compared to the internet.
 
If you're going to pigeon hole it into a payments only affair, then maybe it hasn't set the world on fire - but that pigeon-holing is wayward. It needs to be considered in terms of all of its use cases. On that basis, its network effect continues to grow.

Another point to note...what has largely been debated here is its continued success or its ultimate failure. I mean you can if you wish compare its potential impact with other emerging innovations but that's not been the over-riding theme here. To me, its continued growth and use as a means of payment is plenty significant but if you want to size it up against other innovations, maybe start another thread.

It isn't pigeon holing when the very premise of Bitcoin is as a payment system, as the first line of the whitepaper outlines....."A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow onlinepayments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through afinancial institution."

As a payment system it doesn't look like it is gaining much traction, perhaps in part because it has changed to be predominantly an investment product. That is my view, I think it is already failing as a payments system.

The technological aspects of the technology 'blockchain' can be replicated by USDC/USDT with the stability of fiat backed currency which is why stablecoin payments are growing.
 
Those are the attributes of BTC, yet many treat it as an investment product i.e. Michael Saylor has not acquired millions of BTC to facilitate payments. At the same time since BTC was created there has been significant innovation in the payments space that have made it easier for cross-border payments, and payments more broadly.
I guess that was my point - its not as narrowly defined as payments only. On payments, I agree that there has been plenty of innovation relative to payments outside of the bitcoin network itself (even if a lot of it might also implicate blockchain tech).

Trust and censorship are nuanced, the fast majority of people trust central governments or trust them enough not to adopt Bitcoin. The need for government backstops and interventions is still needed in financial markets.
It certainly covers trust and censorship resistance better than many other options - although we don't need to look at things as black/white. There are times and places where there's greater need not to trust third parties or where censorship resistance is more important and other times/places when those things are not as important. It's good to have the optionality.
As regards backstops/interventions relative to markets, I agree. There's no reason why the best of all worlds can't be harnessed for the greater good. Nobody should look to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

At the end of the day, Bitcoin as a payment system has a novel technology use but it is still just payments. It can't really be compared to the internet.

Payments is just one string to its bow. As regards comparing it to the internet, I'm sure there's someone somewhere who has - but I haven't seen that here (other than a comparison of the market development relative to bitcoin and the internet). I see it as an extension of the internet, a continuance of internet development.
It isn't pigeon holing when the very premise of Bitcoin is as a payment system, as the first line of the whitepaper outlines....."A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow onlinepayments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through afinancial institution."
This has come up before. Why should it be boxed in by a whitepaper? The argument seems to go that it was designed for x, it's not doing x sufficiently, its failed at x - hence its a failure and any use of it for other purposes reflects that failure. I don't see it that way. Firstly, its been debated as to whether payments was its sole intended purpose since we know very well that its founder(s?) referred to its store of value properties. Its often happened with innovations that they've found other use cases over time. Look at AI right now. Nobody truly understands the entire effects that tech will have in all cases.
As a payment system it doesn't look like it is gaining much traction, perhaps in part because it has changed to be predominantly an investment product. That is my view, I think it is already failing as a payments system.
I see it differently insofar as there is cross-over between the various use cases - they are and will continue to serve to compliment each other in many ways insofar as achieving further network effect and growth is concerned.

The technological aspects of the technology 'blockchain' can be replicated by USDC/USDT with the stability of fiat backed currency which is why stablecoin payments are growing.

Stablecoins are a definite innovation - no question. If bitcoin was a one trick pony (payments), that might be a problem. It's not so I don't think it is - and with that, I'd imagine that there's no reason why both can't continue to progress.
 
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A payments system like nothing that has ever existed before.

- Borderless
- Permissionless
- Trustless
- Censorship resistant
- Global
- Decentralised
@tecate has observed that we should view btc through two prisms, technological and economical. You have listed its technological features which seem to mightily impress you. Personally they underwhelm me, not even on a par with, dare I say it, a fax machine. The learned economical wisdom is that it is useless.
 
@tecate you say that btc has morphed beyond its original purpose of being currency. Are you saying that when its price goes to zero it will still have uses. Givuz a clue.
 
@tecate you say that btc has morphed beyond its original purpose of being currency. Are you saying that when its price goes to zero it will still have uses. Givuz a clue.
I believe that its founder(s?) touched on its store of value proposition from the outset so it's not so much that it has morphed but that it has a number of use cases. On the 'when its price goes to zero' malarkey, we can cover that should such a thing ever happen. :)
 
Continuing to demonstrate no genuine interest in the actual topic I see. Such consistency.
You were giving the impression that you had given up trying to engage in the conversation. If you're back in the game, would you mind clarifying your earlier statement:

In terms of tulips being a store of value, they could never be seeing as they're not finite.

Isn't it in fact true that tulips ARE finite?
 
You were giving the impression that you had given up trying to engage in the conversation.
What you're going on with here has nothing to do with the discussion. As I've pointed out to you, I wont be engaging with you on this further other than to clarify that your scribblings betray the fact that you have little genuine interest in furthering the subject of this discussion and would rather engage in the obtuse. You can come back and twist it this way or that if you like, I'll be responding as above each and every time.
 
Those are the attributes of BTC, yet many treat it as an investment product i.e. Michael Saylor has not acquired millions of BTC to facilitate payments. At the same time since BTC was created there has been significant innovation in the payments space that have made it easier for cross-border payments, and payments more broadly.

Trust and censorship are nuanced, the fast majority of people trust central governments or trust them enough not to adopt Bitcoin. The need for government backstops and interventions is still needed in financial markets.

At the end of the day, Bitcoin as a payment system has a novel technology use but it is still just payments. It can't really be compared to the internet.
I myself have treated it as an investment, I started buying it in 2014 and continue to buy every single week and it's turned out to be an outstanding investment. I remember telling all of my family and friends to buy it when it was under €800 and they all laughed at me. They are not laughing now and they are all saddled with crippling mortgages / car loans and debt, meanwhile I'm debt free and very "comfortable"

I don't see myself using it as a payment network anytime soon (The lightning network)

But as @tecate said, payments is only 1 string in bitcoins bow

The vast majority of people trust cental governments? I agree with you there. More fool them.

I never compared it to the Internet by the way
 
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What you're going on with here has nothing to do with the discussion. As I've pointed out to you, I wont be engaging with you on this further other than to clarify that your scribblings betray the fact that you have little genuine interest in furthering the subject of this discussion and would rather engage in the obtuse. You can come back and twist it this way or that if you like, I'll be responding as above each and every time.
Continuing to demonstrate no genuine interest in the actual topic I see. Such consistency.
 
@tecate has observed that we should view btc through two prisms, technological and economical. You have listed its technological features which seem to mightily impress you. Personally they underwhelm me, not even on a par with, dare I say it, a fax machine. The learned economical wisdom is that it is useless.
They do impress me duke, you are correct there
 
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