O
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Might be looking at a situation here where the captain of a doomed vessel - sailing towards sh*t creek no doubt - attempts to falsely reassure the passengers.
Raising lending multiples in the UK - look who it is....an Irish Bank:
http://money.guardian.co.uk/property/mortgages/story/0,,1933587,00.html
I don't know how they can get away with that line about doing everyone a favour because if they didn't people would be priced out. Irresponsible lending is one of the factors that has caused prices to rise to ridiculous levels in Ireland. Do they think that people are too stupid to realise that lenders getting more and more "generous" is one of the major reasons that property prices have risen so far so fast. We're lucky that rising interest rates appear to have started to put an end to the madness here.
http://money.guardian.co.uk/property/mortgages/story/0,,1933587,00.html
I don't know how they can get away with that line about doing everyone a favour because if they didn't people would be priced out. Irresponsible lending is one of the factors that has caused prices to rise to ridiculous levels in Ireland. Do they think that people are too stupid to realise that lenders getting more and more "generous" is one of the major reasons that property prices have risen so far so fast. We're lucky that rising interest rates appear to have started to put an end to the madness here.
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minky
Guest
There's a good article today in the indo about the rise of "ghost towns" in the republic,
That they are creating [FONT=Verdana, Arial]a sense of abandonment in places and are falling into neglect and disrepair. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Most of them are owned by investors who have yet to rent or sell them on.[/FONT]
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1714507&issue_id=14825
That they are creating [FONT=Verdana, Arial]a sense of abandonment in places and are falling into neglect and disrepair. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Most of them are owned by investors who have yet to rent or sell them on.[/FONT]
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1714507&issue_id=14825
stanbowles
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excellent article ... rare to see half-decent journalism in either of the two main Irish 'broadsheets', especially on property-related matters.
Yes, and they'd be right.
CelloPoint
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Well put! - that's something I'll rant to my customers about when I'm dropping them off in Clonsilla or somewhere...
CelloPoint
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Agree, very good article. I particularly liked the last paragraph:
Irish Indo said:
Just what have we done to our country? The random pitter-patter of one-off houses that blight the landscape reflect the greed and incompetence by our local authorities. Yes, I'm gonna have a finger-pointing blame rant here: I think all planning matters should be taken away from the local authorities and fat-cat councillers and handed over to a regulated and fully independent planning authority. The incompetence has been proven many a time, but honestly, I can't see any changes being made to the cushy status-quo that a few individuals are benefiting enormously from.
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Open_Window
Guest
Good sobering article.
So there it is, the rot in the system that we call progress, the symptom of greed. If you were buidling a house would you naturally add some dampness & structural instability if the stated goal was a safe house?
Full circle my friends. We had ghost towns & empty houses strewn across the countryside becasue of emmigration in the 1800s. the 80s in a no prospect economy, now we have created ghost towns because and say its good for us, its growth while no one can afford to live were they need to.
My goodness future generations are going to look back and scream, laugh and cry all in disbelief.
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wolfie
Guest
The title of this thread sums everything up about the property market .Sentiment.The public have finally realised that houses are just a place to live in for the vast majority of people.The rising costs of mortgages plus the general rise in the cost of living is starting to hit home.With virtually no capital appreciation guaranteed the sentiment is swinging rapidly against housing.The dream of buying a home and being able to brag about how much more it is worth since you bought it last year is over.It is a huge monthly payment now that will be around your neck for the next however many years .The cost of it is rising not dropping.Incomes are not rising as rapidly as the accompanying debts.You cant bail out that credit card debt, store card or other debt now with remortgaging because the "equity " is gone.Most people are not even surviving on their wages week to week with out subsidising it with card debt or overdraft debt.I cant count the amount of people I know who are living off remortgage money.Constantly topping up mortgage debt to finance their basic not extravagent lifestyles.This whole economy is an illusion .Its a smoke and mirrors act.Its entirely driven by construcion related growth.The change of sentiment in the housing market will have far more impact than even the most pessimistic of economists have forecast.By the way.... I work in construction so I have no vested interest in talking down property at all.
It has been - in many cases - much easier to get planning permission for holiday house schemes than it has been for families living and working in said localities to get permission for a single family house. While I realise that there are issues around one-off houses, the blight of holiday homes is not quite as simple as you would put it. The truth is that much planning in this country is done on an ideological basis without consideration to the needs of the local community. An effective ban on one-off houses is worthy of criticism in this respect, particularly when you examine the multi-house developments that are being built.
In truth, I have lived in several different newish estates in Dublin, and most of those houses have been built, not with the needs of the occupants upper most in the minds of the designers, but the need to extract the most amount of profit with no regard at all to the needs of the potential occupants.
I don't think centralised planning is the answer because in recent times, a great deal of planning has left a great deal to be desired, both in urban areas and rural areas. The point relates to holiday homes, and the fact that they are effectively untaxed. If we had proper regional representation with tax raising powers, I would suggest that a tax should be payable to the regional authority on second homes so that the costs arising from them to localities can be mitigated. Central planning has done little to benefit either the health system, or public transport to any great extent. Planning should be done at local level, but it should, above all, be done with the requirements of the local communities uppermost. The rezoning kerfuffle during the week was actually evidence of good sense. Housing really should be planned on a utilitarian need basis, not a profit-extraction basis. Unfortunately, both in holiday and non-holiday areas, the profit motive is of first importance. And because of this, we have people who want single houses because their needs are not being fulfilled by collective developments. I have a lot of sympathy for them. Whilst saying that I have to say that I would be strongly against one off holiday homes.
In the short term, however, I would tax the hell out of homes which are unoccupied for more than six months. The net benefit of that would be to sort out supply issues in Dublin as well.
O
Open_Window
Guest
I said did it was "sobering", i.e. people who will read it might start to really sober up and look at this whole market with a wider view and that can only effect the market sentiment. I think negatively towards current prices.
CelloPoint
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I would agree with a small tax on second homes. However this is not going to happen any time soon: the budget will be about trying to force a soft landing - property taxes on second homes would flood the market even further, the knock-on effects being detrimental. The effect of such a flooding would far outweigh any benefits of reigning in the specuvestors. The cold hard facts of modern Ireland are that money and politics trump the sociological needs of a well-built society.
Agree but many people who frequent the FF tent have done well so there will be nothing done to rock the boat
Please focus on the debate. Confine genearal discussion concerning the general economy and politics to LOS.
On one side you have the bears who believe that current sentiment is overwhelmingly negative and that the property bubble has or is about to burst.
On the other side you have the property bulls who believe that current sentiment is still positive and property prices will continue to rise for the foreseeable future.
On one side you have the bears who believe that current sentiment is overwhelmingly negative and that the property bubble has or is about to burst.
On the other side you have the property bulls who believe that current sentiment is still positive and property prices will continue to rise for the foreseeable future.
From dozens of post on the "Location" and "Property & Investment" threads it would seem that quite a few people have outstanding mortgages on their PPR whilst also "owning" (in other words, holding interest-only mortgages on) a couple of other properties, typically one rented out in the city or town where they live, the other a 'holiday-home' type investment, also let.
A reasonable - that is, high
- tax on such investment properties (not rental or capital gains based, but based on current market value of any property which is not a PPR ) might achieve a number of things in one fell swoop. It might change the culture of acquiring 'second' and 'third' properties on interest-only mortgages to subsidise or pay off the PPR mortgage before the end of the long loan repayment period. It would take the heat out of the trading-up phenomenon (for the same reason). It could be a disincentive to despoilation of areas of outstanding natural beauty by groups of concrete boxes used to generate income for investors living in the cities as seldom-used houses in rural and coastal areas just would not generate rental income and the robust tax would mean their capital appreciation would not go at such a gallop. All this would re-open space (and bring rural and coastal properties within the means of) young couples, locals who want to work locally and set up businesses and for people who want to relocate full-time to less populated areas to live there and to contribute to the local social and economic life of the community........or is there an economic flaw in that argument?Well Spotted GravityGirl, thats one of the most impressive drops we have seen up to now. I think these posts are v relevant as they provide clear empirical evidence of the slow down/reversal of the property market. I think previous criticism probably related to long list of repeating the same information.
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