Key Post Cost of central heating.

S

sueellen

Guest
Any idea how much it would cost to get 1800sq ft house installed with central heating. No heating at the moment.
Which is cheaper, gas or oil ? Is one easier to install tahn the other ? ta
 
J

Jamie and his magic torch

Guest
Re: Cost of central heating

Hi Alannah,

Just had gas central heating installed into a house approx 1500sq ft. This included a new water tank for loft, new copper cylinder, gas boiler and 11 rads with individual thermostats, water pump and removal of the old kerosene oil heating system for just under 7K.
No idea which is cheaper oil or gas or which is easier to install.

Jamie.
 
H

heinbloed

Guest
oil or gas

To buy a kilowatt of energy in the form of oil is cheaper than to buy the same amount in the form of gas.There is more to the story.For oil you need a tank and you have to clean the boiler more than once per year .You have the stench of spillages after getting a delivery and the permanent stench from the tank and the boiler.If you use the cheaper home heating oil versus the more expensive kerosene than your boiler won't last that long because of the sulfur content.
Gas burns cleaner i.e. you use more of it's potential.Once you are at it go for a combi condensing boiler."Combi" means that you get instant warm water without the need for a storage copper tank and "condensing" means that it's efficiency is more than 90% and you need no chimney(or some one to sweep it) , only a flue pipe through the wall.
For fuel prices check sei.ie/home/index.asp
For boiler manufacturers see www.sedbuk.com/
And if you connect the main water supply to a combi boiler instead to the tank (Jamie and his magic torch)you need no power shower pump in the bathroom,no heating pump because it is in the boiler included and no hot press copper tank .So you save a lot in material and even more on labour if you are spending a little extra when buying the correct type of boiler.You can get a good combi condensing boiler for €2000 from Vokera.
So boiler €2000 radiators incl. valves labour gas connection=total price.
Sorry for jamie , 7 k for 11 rads is much more than necessary.
 
A

alannah

Guest
oil or gas

Thanks heinbloed. Can you recommend anyone to approach to doing a survey, quote and installation ?
 
H

heinbloed

Guest
no recomendation

Sorry,I can't.Shop around and get several quotes.Buy the material that you like yourself in a DIY shop or from a plumbing center after you got the list of material from a plumber that you are willing to give the job to.Usually the plumbers have only a limited choice for you,they are no materials salesmen after all.So once you have the material it is easier to keep an eye on costs for labour , you will realise a rip off much easier when the plumber is working for two days only but charges you € 3000 for labour.Cost control!Make that clear to the plumber,not all are "evil".But give him a good wage for a good job,wear and tear on tools plus the costs for quotation and material list and a guarantee on the job don't come for free.Offer your help in cleaning up the mess and -if you are able to do so-drilling of holes for the pipes,fixing of insulation lagging around pipes etc..
 
M

Mac

Guest
Combi's not suited to every situation

Worth pointing out that a Combi boiler is really only suitable to small houses and apartments. Plus if the water pressure is not sufficient in your area you will end up with a warm water dribble coming from your hot tap and forget about running the washing machine at the same time as having a shower.
 
M

mmclo

Guest
rads

Any idea how much it costs to replace one which has been leaking fro years from the connection at the side (corroded I was told by somebody)

Is this dangerous as system has been working fine all along.

Was on original snag list of house but never done don't suppose I can go after builder now
 
R

rainyday

Guest
Re: rads

Hi Alannah - Don't forget to take running costs into account - these are probably more important than installation costs.
 
H

heinbloed

Guest
combis are allways suited-if neccesary with a booster pump

Hi Mac !
You can phone your local authority and ask them for the actual water pressure.And then you call to the shop and tell them what you want and they will sell you one that is suitable-it's called shopping.And if your plumber is not bright enough to advice you on the different types of combi-condensing boilers than you made the mistake of employing the wrong person.
 
M

Mac

Guest
one size doesn't fit all

Heinblood,
A quote taken from the Baxi website (probably one of the biggest bolier manufacturers in the UK. They are at least honest in pointing out the disadvantages of the Combi bolier as well as the advantages.
"Combination boiler
A combination boiler heats water instantaneously whenever you turn on a hot tap, so you'll never run out of hot water.
However, in most cases, the temperature at the tap is dependent on the temperature of the mains water supply and the flow-rate - hence hot water performance is quoted in terms of litres per min raised through 35°C. Typically it takes two or three times as long to deliver a bathful of hot water, whilst simultaneous use of two or more taps (or a shower and, say, a washing machine) can result in a trickle at each. And if the boiler has not fired recently it can take some time for the hot water to reach a useful temperature, potentially wasting metered water down the drain. "

www.baxi.co.uk/whichboile...urers.html

You can find the same or similar information on many manufactures/distributers/plumbers websites or diy/self build forums indicating the same fact, that a combi will provide a good solution for small houses or apartments where demand for hot water is lower, but are not suitable for larger houses.
But then again what do they all know ...

Apart from the traditional standard hot water storage tank system, there are an increasing number of solutions for the larger house or increased hot water demand, with unvented systems, thermal stores, fast recovery cylinders etc

Additionally a reply to your comment
"combis are allways suited-if neccesary with a booster pump"
I will need to get this confirmed but I believe that since a combi bolier installation is a pressurised system, it is inadvisable in fact probably illegal to fit a pump to it.
 
J

Jamie and his magic torch

Guest
Cost of central heating

If you don't have a heavy demand for hot water in your home, but like the idea of having an endless supply of hot water available on tap a combi boiler is an excellent choice. If you don't make frequent and simultaneous use of sinks, showers, baths, washing machines and dishwashers. The 'combis' heat water instantaneously as you turn on a tap. This helps save on fuel and helps save on space as you don't need a cylinder to store hot water until it's needed.


I would doubt any local authority would guarantee water pressure. Remember at peak times mornings and evenings (tea time) demand would be quite high so pressure is bound to drop.

Maybe worth considering that if you ever decide to extend or need more hot water than first thought get a boiler with extra capacity.

alannah let us know what is decided, gas or oil and how much you got it installed for. I shopped around. Got a total of 5 quotes, most expensive was the actual Bord Gais rep by almost 2K to the lowest quote.

Jamie.
 
A

alannah

Guest
Cost of central heating

It will be another 2 months or so before undergoing this project but I want to do a bit of research before installing same.

Jamie - who else did you use or ask to quote other than Bord gais list ? The road has gas and after that I want someone to come in , have a look and quote for the job without taking the proverbial. I, like everyone, want him/her to come in and do the job that they said they would do and when they said they would. Hmmm now there's a business idea ?

rainyday - is there big difference in cost between gas and fuel vis a vis cost of running which reminds me I have to order Kerosene as I am about to run out at home.
 
J

Jamie and his magic torch

Guest
Re: Cost of central heating

Hi alannah

Bord Gais sent around a circular for upgrading your heating etc etc. Called them and found them least efficient. Needed to meet the rep twice as the second time he brought the actual installer with him. Then called Dun Laoghaire Gas. Again sales person called to the house. Was quite professional however would not budge on the price. Then as I had gathered more info from seeing both of these companies I was able to call up a few companies and get a quote over the phone. OK neither of these quote were scientific but I knew from the initial cost they were also going to be quite expensive. In the end got a recommendation from a friend of a friend. The guy who did it in the end was OK. You need to chase up with these guys and keep them on their toes but it worked out in the end and was not too painful. Where is this house you want the heating installed? This guy is based in Clonsila but would be willing to travel a certain amount. He is Bord Gais approved.
 
N

Northie

Guest
Gas approved installers

Hi Allanah,

Just something to watch with Bord Gais. Have just had gas heating installed as part of a full house refurb and extension (can't give details on price as all built in together), the plumber used was gas board registered but was not on their list of recommended installers. Aparantly there are few enough on this, these are the guys that will be sent out if you ring Bord Gais about any of their deals!.

Anyway, going with a registered installer that is not on this list will encur a cost of €150 from Bord Gais who send out an engineer to "certify" what the registered plumber has done.

To be honest once I get a chance I'm planning on making a compliant as when the engineer arrived out he spent less then five minutes on the pavement filling out a form with the plumber, turning on the meter and leaving. He didn't check any of the work the plumber had done.Heck of a price for 5 minutes work.

However the upside is we saved considerable more then this going with a registered plumber and not one of the recommend plumbers, as Jamie has said they tend to come in much more expensive and there is no bargaining.
 
H

heinbloed

Guest
Baxi's bangers

Hi mac!
Quoting baxis web page is like quoting the rifles ass.on peacekeeping issues.If you check w.sedbuk.com/
you will see that their boilers are not the best in performance/efficiency.When condensing boilers where new to the British market-after they where for more than 10 years on sale elsewhere-the baxi boilers got a bad reputation.Baxi condensing boilers exploded and injured heavily some users.Baxi had to fork out a lot of compensation.
What doe you mean by "large houses" ?Most MODULATING combi condensing boilers are suitable for 2-3 taps opened at once,as you pointed out "liters per minute" is the indicator for that.And of course there are also commercial ones available for hotels ,restaurants etc..
A good combi condensing boiler does fire up from time to time to keep a minimum of temperature in the boiler for immediate delivery-Baxi may not have that feature,have you thought about it?Is that the reason why it scores so low at the sedbuk list?"....potentially wasting metered water down the drain" if I might cite you.
And since we are talking plumbing:there is a system called a "closed loop" which even enables a warm water pipe miles away from the boiler to stay warm and deliver instantaneous warm water to the tap.Surely not invented in GB/Ireland but a common feature in the more developed world where one boiler could supply a whole town with warm water for taps and heating .They call it there "district heating",available in megawatt stations in condensing quality-surely not with an efficiency of more than 90% (if not combined with a power plant that is)due to hundreds of kilometers of pipework.
And why would it be illegal to boost the water pressure that you pay for ?And why boosting something that is good enough anyhow?That is , if you pay for.Because if you pay for it you have a contract that states accurately what the delivery includes-quality and quantity.(How would a swimming pool with hundreds of cubic meter be refilled if the water trickles only?) The same with electricity and gas.If you don't pay for it the quantity and quality is not guaranteed.
You can usually read the available pressure at the meter .And if you have none than get one.Don't demand the public to pay for it-they don't use your bath.
 
M

Mac

Guest
just trying to give another opinion

Hello Heinbloed,
Lookit the simple point I have been trying to make here is that all common sense and
practical opinion points to the fact that a combi bolier does not suit every situation.
I am not saying that they are bad or useless or anything else simply that they are recommended
by all and sundry in the industry for apartments/ small houses ie. expected low water demand
and are considered less beneficial for "larger houses" or higher demand.
Now I know from previous posting with you, that you don't like to admit when you are wrong. Look
there is no shame in being wrong. It's ok to accept other people's opinions. In this case I think you
are wrong especially if you decide you are more of an expert than the industry itself.
I notice you always seem give your opinion based on the soultion you have chosen for your situation/house, therefore it is the correct one and so no other opinion is valid. This is a very incorrect assumpion.

>>What doe you mean by "large houses" ?Most MODULATING combi condensing boilers are suitable for 2-3 taps
>>opened at once,as you pointed out "liters per minute" is the indicator for that.

As you say what is a large house? How long is a piece of string? For argument sake you could say
the perception in the building industry of a small house is less then 100 sqm. But then you could
have a couple living in this house or a a familiy of 7 and water demand is different in each case.

Have a look here for example. Now as I know you take everything very literally so I am not saying this
information is the best, but it has some good information on the pro's and con's.
www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/combi.html

>>And since we are talking plumbing:there is a system called a "closed loop"
Yes this is also called 'unvented' which I mentioned in my previous post !

>>And why would it be illegal to boost the water pressure that you pay for ?And why boosting something
>>that is good enough anyhow?
It was you who made the boosting suggestion initially by the way.

>>That is , if you pay for.Because if you pay for it
>>you have a contract that states accurately what the delivery includes-quality
>>and quantity.(How would a swimming pool with hundreds of cubic meter be refilled
>>if the water trickles only?) The same with electricity and gas.If you don't pay
>>for it the quantity and quality is not guaranteed. You can usually read the
>>available pressure at the meter .And if you have none than get one.Don't demand
>>the public to pay for it-they don't use your bath.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here, it is just a jumble ...
 
G

glenamaddy

Guest
Heating and combi's

Right, I’m a Heating and Plumbing Contractor and ive been following this thread for a while.

Firstly, regarding the heating system.

Do not go for the cheapest quote, people never understand why there are different prices for a heating system. I am not nor will I ever be the cheapest but I always use quality components which are always more expensive than the inferior components supplied and fitted by my competition. As a result I never get problems or call backs with any systems I install.

How elaborate do you want the system to be, do you require separate zones & controls (i.e. Living, sleeping, independent hot water, etc)


Secondly, this thread appears to be hijacked by others ranting on about combi boilers. In Ireland, especially urban areas, the mains water pressure is erratic and low, particularly in peak demand times. As a result combi boilers are unsuitable; they also give trouble (within a couple of years) as there are a lot of electronic components within, resulting in expensive repairs.

For a balanced opinion on combi’s look here: Here (and that’s before they give trouble)

If you wish to spend the least amount of money on a heating system, fair enough, but if you want one that is fuel efficient, comfortable, reliable and that will stand the test of time, be prepared to spend more.

Would you buy a Lada because it’s a cheap car?
 
M

Mac

Guest
comment

Well said mate, I got side tracked. This should be about giving alannah some good advice !
 
H

heinbloed

Guest
modulating combi condensing boilers

Thanks for the link glenamaddy.It is obviously not about a modulating boiler.And it is obviously wrongly installed-1min.40 sec waiting for warm water is either the fault of the plumber(the pipe diameter to wide or the pipe to long and/or not insulated) or the boiler has not enough capacity,no small storage tank and/ or the heat exchanger is a slow reacting one,in a good boiler the capacity can be set to individual demand.And in a good boiler the temperature is set and kept by the modulating element-so no problem with boiling under the shower or freezing.
But that you never call back to the place where you have installed a boiler -hm,I hope you have told your clients that all boilers should be serviced and controlled with the appropriate instruments at least once per year,like a Lada or a Mercedes as well,including the electrics.Modern boilers have a "electric memory" build in that will tell the service person what is wrong-that is if he/she is trained to use the necessary instruments -as in a modern garage.Would you not drive a car that has electric controlls ?
It is about a baxi boiler however,I am not to impressed about their performance neither,MAC,read the link of glanamaddy.
Why should there be a problem of changing water pressure?If the capacity of the public water mains is not good enough than do something about it.There is no pressure problem from 7-9 am in an apartment block,that is despite that the people living there pay as much as anybody else for their water-without depending on a tank under the roof.
And ,Mac,it is not my intention to put you under pressure(bon mot!) to proof that there is everything o.k. about Irish/your plumbing.How much pressure is there on your mains anyhow?Just make sure you know what you are talking about.....
 
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