Corrib Gas Gardai story
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I think this is it in a nutshell. One woman wouldn't give her name and another one was saying that she wouldn't be safe in garda custody - I think the gardai were incredulous that someone would think that - along the lines of 'what does she think we'd do? give us your name and address and I'll rape you'! - they seemed to be laughing at the very notion of it.
Does anyone believe for a minute that the people of Mayo have anything to fear from these gardai? I know I don't.
Look I agree the comment was stupid and inappropriate.
However there is a difference if this was banter between two regular non garda guys, well hey they are creeps! The fact that this was a joke among guards gives a perception that rape is not seriously taken by the Gardai.. The guards may very well take a rape allegation seriously, however based on that tape it is perceived by alot of people that they don't it's a bit of a joke...
I don't think these guys should lose their jobs. I do however think the issue should be taken seriously and the culture of rape humour to become as unacceptable as racism etc. A reprimand is appropriate and the publicity may well serve to make others think twice before making such stupid comments.
You're making leaps over common sense. Its a slow news week effort and a chance for the tabloids to have a crack at the Guards. I'e heard plenty of black humour jokes and laughed at most of them. This "joke" was in bad taste I would agree but I think Betsy Og has summarised it best.
Edit : I recall Tommy Tierney referred to rape in a joke he made years ago and nobody mentioned it. By your logic celebrities don't take rape seriously.
The argument that this is equivalant to a private and edgy joke in poor taste that we might privately snigger at. or it is the same as saying "I'd do" this or that person doesn't stand up in this context. Why?
1. These are Garda who have these women in lawful custody. They have power over them such that to a large extent the women are at their mercy and in their control. This is not the same as some comedian on a stage, or a comment passed in the office or a pub, where no real control is in play.
2. The word rape in the context of women (and of sexual crime) has a very particular and specific connotation. It has no bearing to any other context, because there is no other context in this case. The meaning of the word in this context is unambigious.
3. A common theme of porn is the "rape myth". A woman says no but really means yes. Thus a woman's refusal is sexualised and exploited. Likewise when you trivialise the term, or say it is not meant in that way, or that these people have sisters and mothers and don't/didn't mean it that way, you are underming the term, and silencing objectors by saying they are mis-reading it, "overreacting or "hysterical" or whatever. And it should be obvious that actual rapists have mothers and probably female relations as well.
I'm not saying that joking or whatever should be banned. But we need to understand just why these type of comments, if true, would be significant, and not to be dismissed lightly, or just excused as a stupid mistake, although it might be this too.
1. These are Garda who have these women in lawful custody. They have power over them such that to a large extent the women are at their mercy and in their control. This is not the same as some comedian on a stage, or a comment passed in the office or a pub, where no real control is in play.
2. The word rape in the context of women (and of sexual crime) has a very particular and specific connotation. It has no bearing to any other context, because there is no other context in this case. The meaning of the word in this context is unambigious.
3. A common theme of porn is the "rape myth". A woman says no but really means yes. Thus a woman's refusal is sexualised and exploited. Likewise when you trivialise the term, or say it is not meant in that way, or that these people have sisters and mothers and don't/didn't mean it that way, you are underming the term, and silencing objectors by saying they are mis-reading it, "overreacting or "hysterical" or whatever. And it should be obvious that actual rapists have mothers and probably female relations as well.
I'm not saying that joking or whatever should be banned. But we need to understand just why these type of comments, if true, would be significant, and not to be dismissed lightly, or just excused as a stupid mistake, although it might be this too.
Quote: "having said that, I dont think they should lose their jobs over it but should be reprimanded"
+1
"And divide people" - don't think so, every 1 seems to agree, but lets not go over the top completely.
Agree with Sunny's comments.
Also, should a copy of the tape just have been sent with a complaint to the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and the Ombudsman?
Now everyone is involved and this does not help the Gardai and their relationship with the general public.
+1
"And divide people" - don't think so, every 1 seems to agree, but lets not go over the top completely.
Agree with Sunny's comments.
Also, should a copy of the tape just have been sent with a complaint to the Minister, the Garda Commissioner and the Ombudsman?
Now everyone is involved and this does not help the Gardai and their relationship with the general public.
Tricky one this. I dont think what they did is a criminal offence but these idiots should be repremanded in some way to send the right signal. I am sure they will suffer due to the level of outrage and media coverage. I wonder did the Morris Tribunal provoke as much outrage.
Maybe they will be transferred to an even worse station, hard to know where that could be...Dublin or Tipperary somewhere...
I've listened to the tape on Youtube. Also, I listened to the News Interview on TV3.
1. The recording of the voices of the GardaI suggests harmless banter and this kind of conversation would go on anywhere.
2. The protester over-reacted. Furthermore, she acted the ultra feeble female.
The whole thing is a cheap publicity stunt to wrongfully discredit the Gardaí.
1. The recording of the voices of the GardaI suggests harmless banter and this kind of conversation would go on anywhere.
2. The protester over-reacted. Furthermore, she acted the ultra feeble female.
The whole thing is a cheap publicity stunt to wrongfully discredit the Gardaí.
My post earlier was making the point that if a tape was found and exactly the same conversation was had,but instead of shell to sea protesters they were talking about female members of the Guards,how do you think the Gardai would view it??
Think back to Price waterhouse cooper!!
Also I would have been naive enough to think that at least while they are on duty they would have behaved properly,but sadly this is not the case..
Another point is that they felt secure enough to say what they said while in the company of work mates,while on duty and while a Sargent was present..what message are we getting from this..no one said ,lads thats inappropriate.
The message it sends out is the problem,I agree that they in all fairness didnt mean to act on it and it was most likly to be a bunch of lads messing and trying to be lighthearted..
Other posters have said that nurses/Doctors/Ambulance drivers etc laugh about suicide etc, but the point is, up till now this was not generally known by the public ,,I would imagine a lot of people would be hurt to think that if their son/daughter etc had died that those who were there would have a laugh about it.or for some woman who could be raped today that she would now think ,are the professionals having a laugh about this... it really makes me think about how professional they are that they can behave in that way...this should not be in the public domain..too many people can be affected by it.
If I want a laugh ,I can go see a comedian,I didnt think I would find it after a tragic death among the nurses and doctors in A and E..
It is another way of losing the trust of the public and more importantly the families and friends and indeed the person who is raped..
I suppose to sum up,when I read the poster who said this happens all the time at coffee breaks,I felt ,can we trust no one when we are vulnerable?,as I honestly believed professional people dealing with tragedy would not find it funny..
I just know that anyone I have worked with would never,and have never discussed vunrable people in such a way,and if they did they would very quickly be put right..
And for those who are reading these posts,dont be disheartened,rest assured many of us still remain with some principals and value you and the majority of professionals do not have a laugh at others expense..
Think back to Price waterhouse cooper!!
Also I would have been naive enough to think that at least while they are on duty they would have behaved properly,but sadly this is not the case..
Another point is that they felt secure enough to say what they said while in the company of work mates,while on duty and while a Sargent was present..what message are we getting from this..no one said ,lads thats inappropriate.
The message it sends out is the problem,I agree that they in all fairness didnt mean to act on it and it was most likly to be a bunch of lads messing and trying to be lighthearted..
Other posters have said that nurses/Doctors/Ambulance drivers etc laugh about suicide etc, but the point is, up till now this was not generally known by the public ,,I would imagine a lot of people would be hurt to think that if their son/daughter etc had died that those who were there would have a laugh about it.or for some woman who could be raped today that she would now think ,are the professionals having a laugh about this... it really makes me think about how professional they are that they can behave in that way...this should not be in the public domain..too many people can be affected by it.
If I want a laugh ,I can go see a comedian,I didnt think I would find it after a tragic death among the nurses and doctors in A and E..
It is another way of losing the trust of the public and more importantly the families and friends and indeed the person who is raped..
I suppose to sum up,when I read the poster who said this happens all the time at coffee breaks,I felt ,can we trust no one when we are vulnerable?,as I honestly believed professional people dealing with tragedy would not find it funny..
I just know that anyone I have worked with would never,and have never discussed vunrable people in such a way,and if they did they would very quickly be put right..
And for those who are reading these posts,dont be disheartened,rest assured many of us still remain with some principals and value you and the majority of professionals do not have a laugh at others expense..
disgusting...
How were these women vunerable? They weren't even there. Bertie Ahearn was rightly criticised for making his suicide comment but that was in a public forum. This would never had been made public and caused distress to victims unless it was released by the women involved. Why didn't they just give the tape to the authorities and make the complaint. The whole thing could have dealt with. Right now you have three guards bring publically crucifed for stupid comments made in a private conversation. I am not condoning the comments made. I just don't think it is fair they are being used by the shell to sea campaign for their own agenda. One of women making a comment today thY she feared for the safety of local people was disgraceful.
Again this misses the point. It should not have been said in public, it should not have been said in private, it should not have been said by members of the force who have a responsibility for rape victims or by a crowd of lads in the pub on a Saturday night. Joking about rape trivialises the issue and creates a culture in which sexual violence is a topic of fun instead of the serious issue it is.
Any man in any conversation worth his salt should have said "shut up that's not on". Again I make the point that if they were joking about raping a child, people would be outraged. It does not matter that they were joking about a shell to sea protester who was in no real danger. It matters that they were joking.
I dont recall saying the women in question were vunerable?
I was talking about vunerable women,ie;those who have been raped and feel the Guards think its acceptable to laugh about it.
I agree it shouldnt have been made public ,not for the sake of the guards involved but for the sake of women who will be raped and have to go to the guards..that must be an added burden..
There is such a thing as an underlying threat, and to me,thats is the problem with something like this..its a bit like the passive aggressive pattern of behavior..the half joke full earnest..
I agree with you ali, espically when you say any man worth his salt etc.
Thankfully all of the men I know would never say that and they would be appalled if one of their group said it ..but these are good men.
I asked my husband his thoughts on it and he said it is NOT a commonly used word among his male friends..he said that if someone did ,they would be viewed as a weirdo..
Banter by non garda guys! Guards are just guys in uniform and believe it or not they have banter just as much as you office ort factory worker. If a guard makes a private joke and you then make the leap to 'guards don't take rape seriously' it really does begger belief.
1. you're right, because a comedian makes the joke in public where as the guards spoke privately in the confines of their car.
2. ? ? ?
3. OK, I don't know who introduced porn into this discussion but it wasn't the guards, and I'll have to take your take on the common theme in porn for granted.
If people don't know the victim or their family directly then there is the capacity for a joke because if we were to dwell on the tragedy evident in every day life then we would be in a permanent state of mourning. Now and again joke are made which seem inappropriate but they are not designed to hurt anyone and it would be worse in my opinion if people feigned compassion and started reaching out to all the victims and their families online or in a canteen when obviously their sentiments mean as little as the jokes that other people make.
They are not just guys in uniforms though are they,they are not the local milkman, they have power !
They are in uniform for a reason,they wear this uniform while they protect and serve,they are law enforcers,they should set examples.While they wear the uniform they become all of these things.
There are cultures in every organisation,these cultures can be accepted or not..
This was not on private time,it was while they were on duty and in uniform and with a Sargent present,and being paid to do their job.
Ive no interest in shell to sea.
If for example you worked in a pizza factory and you said you would rape your female co worker,and it was heard on tape,how do you think that would be dealt with?
Or if it was your daughter/mother/wife/sister that they were referring too,how would you like it dealt with..I would hope that most decent people would see that it is not acceptable.
I just know how I feel and as a woman I find it extremely disappointing that such inappropriate use of language ,and saying what they said is very dis hearting.
And if this is what goes on,and it just happened to be caught on tape,the issue is what else is going on?
They are in uniform for a reason,they wear this uniform while they protect and serve,they are law enforcers,they should set examples.While they wear the uniform they become all of these things.
There are cultures in every organisation,these cultures can be accepted or not..
This was not on private time,it was while they were on duty and in uniform and with a Sargent present,and being paid to do their job.
Ive no interest in shell to sea.
If for example you worked in a pizza factory and you said you would rape your female co worker,and it was heard on tape,how do you think that would be dealt with?
Or if it was your daughter/mother/wife/sister that they were referring too,how would you like it dealt with..I would hope that most decent people would see that it is not acceptable.
I just know how I feel and as a woman I find it extremely disappointing that such inappropriate use of language ,and saying what they said is very dis hearting.
And if this is what goes on,and it just happened to be caught on tape,the issue is what else is going on?
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