Commission on Welfare and Taxation

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Purple

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The Commission on Welfare and Taxation was set up last year and is due to report to the Government by July next year.
It's tasked to;
the Commission of Taxation and Welfare is being established to independently consider how best the taxation and welfare systems can support economic activity and promote increased employment and prosperity, while ensuring that there are sufficient resources available to meet the costs of public services and supports in the medium and longer term.
The Commission’s work will have regard to the principles of taxation and welfare policy outlined within the Programme for Government, including the Government’s commitment to a pro-enterprise policy framework and to providing a stable and sustainable regulatory and tax environment. It will also take account of relevant issues such as the impact of the COVID-19 Emergency, ageing demographics, digital disruption and automation and the long term strategic commitments of Government regarding health, housing, and climate.

It has 14 members.
8 are current or retired State Employees.
1 Trade Unionist
1 from the Homeless Industry
1 from IBEC

These people are establishment insiders. They will tweak what's there and look to pour more money into the leaky bucket. Most of them spent their careers advising the Government and State, what new insights will they have now?


We know what they are going to propose. It'll be universal incomes, green taxes, more money for health and social inclusion. They won't recommend systemic structural reform of the bodies that spend money on behalf of the people of Ireland. There'll be no hard criticism of anyone within the State Sector because they are the State sector. Even the person from the Homeless Industry is ultimately paid by the State.

Why do we bother with these echo chambers?
 
Great points Purple. Surely a commission such as this shoukd have private sector specialists ie tax etc
 
jim said:
Great points Purple. Surely a commission such as this shoukd have private sector specialists ie tax etc
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They have
  • Marie Bradley, Managing Director, Bradley Tax Consulting
  • Sandra Clarke, President of the Irish Tax Institute, Partner in BCC Accountants
I don't know those people but I presume they are experts in taxation.
2 out of 14.
What's frightening for me is that 10 of the 14 people there are either in a union or were in a union yet only a quarter of the workforce is in a Union and the vast majority of them are in the State sector. Again, this is insiders looking at the problem from the inside. This is State sector group-think.
 
When were the appointments announced?

I wrote to the two Ministers asking to be appointed. Not sure whether I got an acknowledgement or not.

Brendan
 
Hi Purple

Just looked at the list and it's not too bad.

Two tax consultants from the private sector
The Director of IBEC

I have been to a number of presentations by Dr Barra Roantree of the ESRI and he is excellent.

But I agree that I don't expect any of them to challenge the fundamentals.

Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi Purple

Just looked at the list and it's not too bad.

Two tax consultants from the private sector
The Director of IBEC

I have been to a number of presentations by Dr Barra Roantree of the ESRI and he is excellent.

But I agree that I don't expect any of them to challenge the fundamentals.

Brendan
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They'll just suggest changes to how much water we collect and how much we then pour into each leaky bucket.
 
Purple said:
They have
  • Marie Bradley, Managing Director, Bradley Tax Consulting
  • Sandra Clarke, President of the Irish Tax Institute, Partner in BCC Accountants
I don't know those people but I presume they are experts in taxation.
2 out of 14.
What's frightening for me is that 10 of the 14 people there are either in a union or were in a union yet only a quarter of the workforce is in a Union and the vast majority of them are in the State sector. Again, this is insiders looking at the problem from the inside. This is State sector group-think.
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Did I miss details of union membership on the Commission's web page?
 
Mentioned in Budget speech just now

A particular regard such as age and demographics.

Climate change

Public consultation over the coming weeks
 
noproblem said:
I believe that if everyone was given equal wealth tomorrow morning, by distributing the wealth of this country, it would be all spent/wasted by many, and still end up percentage wise in much the same ownership again.
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What makes you think that?
The main factor influencing wealth distribution in this country is when you bought your house and when you took out your pension.
 
Purple said:
What makes you think that?
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People, and what they do, what they expect or don't expect, and what others see as their rights/entitlements.
Purple said:
The main factor influencing wealth distribution in this country is when you bought your house
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But that's the problem starting off, it's not your house unless you own it. Until you do, it's not yours.
 
noproblem said:
People, and what they do, what they expect or don't expect, and what others see as their rights/entitlements.
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That's a bit vague and certainly not my experience.
noproblem said:
But that's the problem starting off, it's not your house unless you own it. Until you do, it's not yours.
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You own the equity. That's net wealth and that's what counts.
At the moment the State is spending vast amounts of money renting the use value of inflates assets, causing further inflation of those assets.
We pay for it by taking tax from people with good incomes who can't afford those assets themselves, thus reducing their chance of affording those assets in the future.
In other words government policy is transferring wealth from those who generate wealth through labour to those who own or control capital, thus widening the wealth gap. Over the last 30-40 years there has been a global transfer of wealth from labour to capital. That suits me as I'm on the right side of the line but I don't think it's right and I certainly don't think it's economically or socially sustainable.

A commission on taxation and welfare which ignores this issue is pointless. It's like the deck chair committee on the Titanic.
 
Purple said:
I don't know. It is highly likely that all the State employees were in a union. The union rep is probably in a union. The Academics are probably in a union.
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Right so, you've no idea which of the members of the Commission are or were in a union then. Those who you assume are/were in a union may not be. Those who you assume aren't/weren't in a union may well be. It's a bit of a red herring.
 
@Purple are you not going a bit "Lord" Frost here and dismissing a report without it even being published? I would agree that the membership does seem more narrowly focussed if you look at people as merely representatives of a Union that they once or still are members of. I'm a member of a Union and I certainly don't have the same views as all other members of the Union, I contain multitudes, as I'm sure do many of the members of the Commission.
 
dereko1969 said:
@Purple are you not going a bit "Lord" Frost here and dismissing a report without it even being published? I would agree that the membership does seem more narrowly focussed if you look at people as merely representatives of a Union that they once or still are members of. I'm a member of a Union and I certainly don't have the same views as all other members of the Union, I contain multitudes, as I'm sure do many of the members of the Commission.
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I'm not questioning their integrity or their sense of public spirit. I'm suggesting that they are from the same Stable and so are very likely to view the problem from the same perspective.

For example the whole message from the State and from the government as we open up post-Covid is that we are all "returning to the office" and that's true for most Public Servants but as a country most of us don't work in offices. We work in shops and warehouses and factories and farms etc. We all see the world from our own perspective so if you want a broad range of views then you need a broad range of perspectives.

If I'm wrong I'll be more than happy to say so.
 
RetirementPlan said:
Right so, you've no idea which of the members of the Commission are or were in a union then. Those who you assume are/were in a union may not be. Those who you assume aren't/weren't in a union may well be. It's a bit of a red herring.
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This is a thread on a discussion forum peculating on the outcome of a commission, not a courtroom. Don't be so precious about the opinion of strangers.
 
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