Class S PRSI from ARF for JSB

I will appeal that decision tomorrow, but bearing in mind it took over 3 weeks for them to reply to my first request for the decision to be reconsidered, it may be a little while before I hear anything. However, again, sincere thanks for the advice and assistance
 
I was just about to update here, but in short, still waiting...! I sent three reminders after my appeal, the last of which said they had no record of my appeal. I then pointed them in the right direction, and they located it, confirming that it was being forwarded to the appropriate section for review and reply. That was a month ago now. I'll follow up with them again before the end of this week if I don't hear anything by then.
Many thanks again for the help, fingers crossed
 
Can I ask a question regarding above topic which focuses on self employed from the perspective of an Employed person. If you apply for job seekers benefit and you are refused because DSP deem you are self employed because you have an ARF is that correct. I have never been self employed at any stage over 38+ years. I have a small annuity pension and an ARF set up by small transfer values from 2 other previous pension schemes I was a member of. I recently completed a 13 week temporary Clerical Officer contract in the Civil Service. My understanding was that the 13 weeks requalified me for JSB. I know I would never qualify for Job Seekers Allowance as that is means tested but JSB is not. My application was rejected because DSP are deeming any withdrawals from my ARF are Self Employed income. I know that ARF Withdrawals/distributions are subject to Class S PRSI contributions because an ARF is an investment fund but I don't understand how I can suddenly be treated as self employed when I have never been self employed at any stage. I clearly have 13 weeks PRSI contributions from TCO contract and signed on for credits for the rest of the time so do not understand how they are now telling me I'm self employed because of ARF. Can anyone please clarify for me if this is correct or are DSP just being a bit heavy handed here. They turned me down for Jobseekers Benefit Self Employed even though I applied for Job Seekers Benefit. Thanks.
 
@Gramps

Have you at least 39 class A paid or credited contributions in year 2023 ?

If you have you should qualify for Jobseekers Benefit.
The information on this post from a pensions broker confirmed that this is the case.

Post in thread 'Post 95 public sector early retirement with an ARF.'

Contact DSP and state that your application is for Jobseekers Benefit and not Jobseekers Benefit Self employment.

There have been posts from people who have received Benefit payment 65 with ARFs in excess of 7.5k per year.

I am not sure if anyone has stated that they received Jobseekers benefit payment with an ARF, but this was stated by the DSP official...

"The issue around the ARF pensions existed only for entitlement to the Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-Employed) scheme."

If your claim is still refused make an appeal
 
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So, I was turned down again. The Class S PRSI contributions from my ARF are ongoing, so they deem that ARF to be my self-employment, and as the ARF has not stopped, my self-employment hasn't ceased. If I was to cease drawing down from the ARF, I would have to fully draw it down in one go and get a letter from the ARF provider to confirm this. I'm not doing that!

It's very frustrating dealing with them!! They're happy for you to pay PRSI, which will count towards your pension, but the same contributions are not allowed to be considered as "paid contributions" for JSB.
 
@Gettinolder

Sorry to hear your appeal was unsuccessful.

Did you get a written decision?

I’d love to know how they dealt with SI No 540 of 2022.

That Regulation expressly provides that any week where a person is a self-employed contributor solely in respect of reckonable income or reckonable emoluments arising from an ARF and that person -

(A) has sustained a loss of self-employment in their usual occupation, and

(B) the loss occurred not earlier than the first day of the second last complete calendar year before the year in which his or her application for JBSE is made,

shall be regarded as a week of unemployment.

Was there any explanation given as to why this regulation would not apply in your circumstances?
 
S class said:
A person who is self-employed and becomes unemployed may make a repeat claim for JBSE when that self-employment ends."
Click to expand...
This wording in the operational guidelines for JBSE definitely implies that a new loss of self employment must occur before a second claim for JBSE is awarded.

The appeal decision to refuse payment is probably because @Gettinolder did not actually become unemployed for a second time.
 
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Read this section.

Claims

b) Repeat Claims




The self employment beyond the end of the first period of JBSE payments is the ARF.

It's only when "that self-employment" (the ARF) "ends" that qualification for a repeat claim is allowed.
 
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Yeah that’s my point.

If having an ARF is considered self-employment, notwithstanding SI 540/2022, then the rest is moot
 
SI540/2022 regards an ARF as unemployment for the purposes of allowing payment of JBSE.

When the JBSE payments end the ARF is again considered as self employment.
 
OK. Just an update on my situation. I was refused JSB Self Employed even though I applied for Job Seekers Benefit. I am 62. I was effectively forced to take early retirement after working 38 years in Insurance/Banking. I took my actuarial reduced pension from my DB Employer Pension scheme and I transferred 2 other DC Employer schemes small transfer values into an ARF. I have never been self employed at any stage during working life of 43 years. I have 2261 PRSI A Class contributions per DSP. Obviously despite all statements to contrary no company takes on 62 year olds however I have done short term contracts in the Civil Service. My most recent ended in June and when finished I applied for JSB. As stated my application for JSB was refused. They refused me however for JSBSE. The reason for refusal was that I am deemed self employed because of ARF and S Class PRSI contributions on same. I really cannot understand how you can be deemed to be self employed when you have never been and you are therefore being penalised for having contributed to Employer pension schemes and transferred the values of same into an ARF rather than taking an annuity based on paltry annuity rates. My understanding of Mr Charlie McCreevy's rationale for introducing AMRFs/ARFs was exactly that reason. I explained all this to DSP and asked for a review of their decision. 2 months later I have just received 2 separate letters from them. The first was another fresh refusal of my application with no reference to my ARF but this time stating that I did not qualify for JSB because my employment (13 Week temporary Clerical Officer) had ceased after March and that JSB is only available now to seasonal/short time/part time/casual/retained fire fighters and a Temporary Clerical Officer in the Civil Service is not considered as any of the above even though it is clearly seasonal and temporary etc. The second reply from DSP was confirming that upon review they were sticking with their decision to refuse because I am deemed to be self employed because of my ARF. I am absolutely angry with both replies. Having paid into a system for 43 years that has turned its back on me for reasons I cannot understand or accept. Basically the much hailed introduction of JSB Pay Related is yet another spin con. Firstly because they said it was to stop people who lost their jobs falling of a cliff yet the max weekly amount is €450 for 13 weeks so if you lost an €80k a year job it's not much of a parachute. It also precludes additional amounts for qualifying adult dependents. I thought the old JSB and JSBPR would run in parallel with the best of both applied but that is clearly not the case and they have effectively done away with JSB as it was except for the small cohort mentioned above. But being "deemed" self employed because of an ARF I just don't get. I also doubt if I make it to 66 that I will get a state pension based on my A class contributions and a second one based on my S Class contributions from my ARF. Don't think show.
 
@Gramps

Yes, this is appalling.

ARFs are definitely classed as self employment.
Why, is anybody's guess.

The new rules for Jobseekers benefit state that it no longer applies to full time workers. Your 13 weeks Public Sector employment period is obviously classed as full time employment.
So you don't qualify for this.

Because the new rules for Pay Related Jobseekers Benefit require that you must have paid at least 26 PRSI insurable employment contributions at Class A or H in the 52 weeks prior to your first day of unemployment, you also don't qualify for this.

That only left the JBSE scheme and you don't qualify for this as you are still in self employment with your ARF.




If you managed to get weekly employment of a least 38 euro per week for a minimum of 26 weeks you would qualify for PRJB, because your ARF (providing it has run for a minimum or 117 weeks), would be classed as subsidiary employment.

Could you manage to get this type of employment ?

Could you get 6 months of full or part time Public Sector employment ?

If you managed this and timed the Benefit to run up to, or beyond your 65th birthday, you would keep the payments ongoing up to your 66th birthday.

This could be a consolation for the unfair predicament you find yourself it at the moment.

Make sure to sign on for Jobseekers credits between any periods of employment to ensure you qualify for Benefit payment 65.

If your 63rd birthday falls this year make sure to sign on this year.
Are you signed on from the end of the PS employment ?

You currently meet the rules for paid class A contributions.
All you now need is to have a minimum of 39 Jobseekers credits in the calendar year of your 63rd birthday.

Full time workers who become unemployed will be discriminated against by Pay Related Jobseekers Benefit

Article in Sunday Times 24 August 2025. https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6267f12-0a8b-45d3-9f4d-a4199560bd44?shareToken=35ec05119682af0a58d3d24bfbf7449f No reason has been given in the article. However Jobseekers Benefit rules now state that since 31/03/2025 it no longer applies to full...
www.askaboutmoney.com
 
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Is your ARF less than €7500 per year ?

If so, then your ARF would be classed as subsidiary income.

The 117 and 26 week rules don't apply.
 
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Gramps said:
Having paid into a system for 43 years that has turned its back on me for reasons I cannot understand or accept.
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear this. You are bona fide seeking work under 66. You could actually receive jobseekers if you didn’t have an ARF or had not started drawing down from one yet. This is bonkers and a pure punishment on those who’ve saved for retirement.

Get on to your TD about this. It’s a policy problem and there is a policy fix if there is political will.
 
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