Post 95 public sector early retirement with an ARF.

You probably will.
But there is more confusion added to this in an answer to a parliamentary question to Heather Humphreys where she stated that the 7500 euro per year limit does not apply if a person had at least 117 Prsi contributions in the previous 3 years before claiming the 65s benefit.
 
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I have a small annual ARF drawdown to comply with the imputed distribution. I applied for the over-65 payment and was turned down on the basis of not having Class A contributions in the relevant qualification years. There was no reference to the Class S or to "self-employment".

This is the result that I expected, based on the criteria. However, I wanted to have confirmation in order to show compliance with the Supplementary requirement to apply for any Benefit for which I might be eligible.
 
Did you have 52 S class in the governing year ?
If you did and had previously had at least 104 A contributions you should have qualified.
 
I didn't request my record but I guess not. I only make an annual drawdown and, anyway, it is well below the €5,000 threshold for 52 qualifying Class S PRSI credits.
 
Early Riser, if your ARF drawdown is too small to qualify for Class S PRSI credits, are you paying voluntary contributions instead?
I'm watching all these threads with keen interest! But I've a few years to go before I need to make decisions. I have a small AVC, but it's very unlikely to be worth enough to withdraw €5k a year.
 
POC said:
if your ARF drawdown is too small to qualify for Class S PRSI credits, are you paying voluntary contributions instead?
I'm watching all these threads with keen interest! But I've a few years to go before I need to make decisions. I have a small AVC, but it's very unlikely to be worth enough to withdraw €5k a year.
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No. After the JB I signed for credits.
 
michaelm said:
Might you be currently drawing down €625/month (€7.5k/year) or more from your ARF? My very limited, and open to correction, understanding is that any monthly ARF drawdown will generate Class S PRSI stamps which would qualify for Over 65's Payment but that when you cross the €625/month (€7.5k/year) threshold (when 65) such is viewed as self-employment would exclude you from the 65's Payment. It shouldn't matter how much you drew down in the governing year (year you turn 63) as long as it generated the required number of stamps. I believe (based on what I've read on AAM) that monthly ARF drawdowns, of any amount, will generate 52 PRSI S stamps in a given year.

My thinking was that if I keep my drawdown below that threshold just prior to and during the year I am 65 then I would get the Over 65's Payment if meeting the other criteria.
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Threshold/drawdown never part of decision.Paying Class S stamp therefore self employed therefore do not qualify.
 
Michol3 said:
Threshold/drawdown never part of decision.Paying Class S stamp therefore self employed therefore do not qualify.
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The operational guidelines don’t state that class S payments immediately exclude you from eligibility only your (self) employment status. DSP have a code of practice to determine employment status, which may be helpful.
 
Michol3 said:
Threshold/drawdown never part of decision.Paying Class S stamp therefore self employed therefore do not qualify.
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It might be lucky dip depending on the desk it lands on. Would that not mean that no one with an ARF will qualify for Over 65's Payment? I'd be appealing such a decision. My take is that one can have an income of up to €7500, paying class S on that, and still qualify for Over 65's Payment.
 
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michaelm said:
It might be lucky dip depending on the desk it lands on. Would that not mean that no one with an ARF will qualify for Over 65's Payment? I'd be appealing such a decision. My take is that one can have an income of up to €7500, paying class S on that, and still qualify for Over 65's Payment.
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I appealed to SW Appeals Office.No mention of thresholds/income.I will quote summary paragraph below sent to me.
”Under social welfare legislation any payments received by way of pension are not regarded as reckonable emoluments for the purposes of self employed PRSI.However,unlike annuity products,ARFs are not pensions but are treated as assets.Distributions from ARFs fall within the charge to class Class S self employed PRSI,or if the recipient of the distribution is a modified class contributor,Class K.”
 
I brought up the anomaly regarding Class S PRSI from ARF withdrawals and the Benefit Payment at 65 with someone senior in the Department some months ago.

Here's a couple of replies that might be useful...

Dear Mr Ferguson, further to our call, please see the following update.

I can confirm that the Minister for Social Protection has recently introduced Regulations to provide that self-employed contributors who have lost their usual self-employed occupation and who are in receipt of an Approved Retirement Fund (ARF) may now be eligible for Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-Employed) in certain circumstances. This includes people at age 65 years who are applying for the Benefit Payment for 65 year olds.

Under the new arrangements, a self-employed contributor who is in receipt of income solely from an ARF may be considered eligible for these supports where:
  • the person has lost self-employment in their usual occupation and where the loss occurred since the beginning of the second last complete calendar year before the year in which the application is made. For example, in order to qualify for a claim made in 2022, the applicant’s usual self-employed business must have closed on or after 01 January 2020. Applications made in 2023 will require that the business closed on or after 01 January 2021.
The other statutory conditions for the scheme must continue to be satisfied, including that they have S contributions in the relevant contribution year, which is the second last complete calendar year. For example, a person must have S cons paid in 2020 for a claim made in 2022.
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The above reply referred specifically to people who has been self-employed previously. I asked what the position was for people with Class A PRSI. This was the reply...

Mr Ferguson – the payment of class S or M cons does not affect entitlement to Jobseeker’s Benefit (BP65) for those that were PAYE workers.



The issue around the ARF pensions existed only for entitlement to the Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-Employed) scheme.
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Regards,

Liam
www.FergA.com
 
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bstop said:
The answer to the questions clarify the situation for Jobseekers Benefit for paye workers but does not clarify the situation for 65s benefit for paye workers.
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I think it is quite clear that any ARF issues do not pertain to the PAYE scheme - under or over 65.
 
Early Riser said:
I think it is quite clear that any ARF issues do not pertain to the PAYE scheme - under or over 65.
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Just noticed that the answer refers to Jobseekers Benefit and then uses the code for 65s Benefit (BP65). This is another example of confusing information.

So maybe one or the other, or both.

Not exactly clear.
 
bstop said:
Just noticed that the answer refers to Jobseekers Benefit and then uses the code for 65s Benefit (BP65). This is another example of confusing information.

So maybe one or the other, or both.

Not exactly clear.
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Confusingly, the Benefit Payment at 65 is a form of Jobseekers Benefit. It's not an early payment of the State Pension.
 
If you have an investment property and making a tax return on income approx. €9,000 PA - Is this considered as employment and would it preclude you from getting the supplementary pension from 60 - 66?

Thanks Sidzer
 
I checked with our pensions officer what constituted self employment WRT supplementary pensionand their answer was paying a S stamp.

I got round this by using https://www.fenero.ie/ for work where they would not put me on the payroll. This has the disadvantage that VAT is added on to the invoice, and that you pay the employers PRSI and the fee to Fenero. It worked well for me as I could take a tax free amount in a gift card. So it can be used to put self employed work through the PRSI system, avoiding S class.
 
sidzer said:
If you have an investment property and making a tax return on income approx. €9,000 PA - Is this considered as employment and would it preclude you from getting the supplementary pension from 60 - 66?
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Due to another convoluted Prsi rule.

Because you would have other income i.e. your occupational pension. Your unearned income, from the investment property would be class K Prsi.

Class K income is not classed as self employment.

However if you also had even the smallest amount of ARF drawdowns your unearned investment income would convert back to class S.
 
S Class - I am not sure what S class PRSI means? Does this mean that you would be considered to be in insurable employment? And then not qualify for the supplementary pension????

I have an AVC which I hope to use to bump up my income in retirement especially in the first 10 yrs when I hope to be doing more travelling. I would find it hard to believe that the government would punish people who have worked hard and put extra money into their pensions by denying them the supplementary pension?

Thanks
 
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