Chartered Accountants & CPA Merger

ArthurMcB said:
58m on a building that is mostly used by student for a few lectures per week. Crazy stuff.
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And that's just the basement level. I only ever was above ground for drinks and canapés after the conferring ceremony (in the basement again...).
 
Aren’t the lectures online? Mind you that’s a change since covid. Can’t blame them for that. It’s a conference centre. Lots of people have buildings that are excessive now. They used to rent lecture rooms all over the place, I assume building their own made economic sense at the time, it’s a while ago isn’t it? 10 years? Maybe more.
 
I had a quick scan of the 2022 CAI annual report and noted the following, all of which were complete eye-openers to me: Land & Buildings (Pearse St) in the Balance Sheet at a Cost of €41million, mostly financed by a 29-year €27m mortgage (2010-2039) - it is staggering to think that an ACCOUNTANTS group spent that amount of money to build a new premises, in the city centre, with limited accessibility, back then at a time of recession . But that ship has sailed.
Turnover €40m. Staff costs €17m - average FTE staff numbers 167, so thats a cost of €102k per staff member - WHAT???
Opex costs at a staggering €22m, which includes premises / facilities costs of €1.7m , and .....wait for it......."Computer & Information System" costs @ €3.1 MILLION, up from €2m in 2021. Plus "IT support and advisory fees" of €897k - what the actual F--- ? That's €15k spent on IT per working day in 2022 - what are they spending that money on???? I know of financial institutions bigger than CAI that don't have an IT spend that big.
So is this proposed merger just a way for them to contribute to this gross spending ?
Again, I would have been expecting a reduction in subs arising out of this proposed merger, but that is not on their agenda, and now I can see why.
So I have expanded my view of this whole proposal to think that this would be a win-win for CPA and CAI management !
 
It stinks. Im surprised that CAs arent more aware of this or if they are aware im surprised they arent scrutinising it and holding ICAI to account. What mechanisms are there to highlight this?
 
ArthurMcB said:
It stinks. Im surprised that CAs arent more aware of this or if they are aware im surprised they arent scrutinising it and holding ICAI to account. What mechanisms are there to highlight this?
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reading the annual report? attend AGM etc etc
 
They can of course but hang on here.

Members pay annual membership fee, they should not be required to attend an agm if they want to challenge something. Make it easy just like they make it easy to pay the hefty fee.

@Blackrock1 reviewing the annual report is one thing. I am talking about a way to critisice the icai, as a paying member.

Is there a regulator, i dont think so? ICAI are evidently taking the mick, imo.
 
ArthurMcB said:
They can of course but hang on here.

Members pay annual membership fee, they should not be required to attend an agm if they want to challenge something. Make it easy just like they make it easy to pay the hefty fee.

@Blackrock1 reviewing the annual report is one thing. I am talking about a way to critisice the icai, as a paying member.
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send a strongly worded email?

Run for president?
 
Like any members organisation I guess you can raise questions. There are a lot of members, a handful engage on platforms like LinkedIn. Most are silent. But they can all vote.
 
There's a CAI Members Townhall on at 1pm today (Tuesday 13th). See the details here: charteredaccountants.ie/Meetings/Meeting.aspx?ID=51380

A chance to ask the tough questions about the proposed 'merger'

Members Townhall - Virtual Event​



Summary
Join us online on Tuesday 13 February for a Members' Town Hall Meeting.
Discover how the proposal that CPA Ireland will amalgamate with Chartered Accountants Ireland will directly benefit you and enhance the Institute's capabilities to tackle the challenges and seize the opportunities that lie ahead for the profession.
Share this
Venue details:
Live Webinar, Online, Zoom
Start date & time:
13 February 2024 13:00
End date & time:
13 February 2024 14:00
 
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This is a long message, so bear with me :)

I attended the townhall, and, in response to accountant1960's question, their promotion of the proposal was the same of the usual BS: "it will create the largest professional body in Ireland, with a louder voice to advocate for members". They were challenged on that - "are we not already the largest, and what's a louder voice going to do for us when we already have the loudest voice?" The presenters were all very calm and seemingly confident in their replies, but there is nothing financially beneficial at all for current CAIs except for the freezing of the already-high subs next year.

I have no idea how many people attended the webinar, but there were more than 15 separate people asking questions.
The questions asked included the following (I'm copying and pasting a lot of these from the webinar site):
1. This didn't work 20 years ago, why is it such a good idea now?
2. Doesn't this merger dilute the brand?
3. Lots of questions about education, students, accreditation, and using the designations abroad
4. Where will the HQ of the combined entity be (answer = Pearse St) It's interesting that the CPA bought their current building for €8.6m back in 2007 - I wonder if they'll be disposing of that, to bring those funds into CAI.
5. Were there any concerns around the merger or what are some of the arguments against the merger? It has been a very one sided presentation/campaign from CAI.
6. Why is this vote being taken with such haste? From announcement to the vote closing has barely been 3 weeks.
7. Why does the CAI want to merge with CPA Ireland when it doesn’t even formally recognise CPA Ireland's members or students for exam or entry exemptions? - not addressed in the webinar
8. A selling point appears to be that it will make the qualification more "international" however I currently work and have worked for many years abroad as an ACA with absolutely no issues - so how is this different/better than it already is?
9. We are currently the largest/strongest accountancy body in Ireland so how is this changing anything? Hard to see what the benefits are to CAI, lots for CPA.
10. What are the vote quotas required to get this through: CAI is 50% +1, CPA is 75% !
11. If this proposal is approved, CPA FIRMS will now be allowed to use the title description ‘Chartered Accountants’. What comforts would you give to current CAI firms who would see their direct competition increase by a third overnight ? - this was addressed and whereas the speaker acknowledged how it could create competitive worries, he felt people would see the merger opportunities - a bit of BS and waffle there.
12. It has always been easier to become a CPA than an ACA. Why are we now diluting our standards?
13. From looking at the comments by members its looks like a potential No vote. I have to agree that the timeline here is too short.
14. I have not seen any of the negative points associated with this proposal. Why have these been suppressed or is it that there has not been any effective devil's advocate included in the decision-making process.
15. 1.5m savings in costs over 3 years is only a saving of 15euro per member per year - will hardly lead to any decrease in fees that we have been led to believe.
 
Thank You andymc. There is not much meat to the points presented. It need a lot to convince members. Having said that, the merger in Canada is very different. The other bodies were at a point of exceeding that of the CA. I do not remember the details, but I think the finances of the CA was bleeding while the other bodies was doing well. So our merger was something that was not the same as yours.

Having said that, the canadian merger was supported by the big 4 and we were sent emails by partners to support the merger. And I am sure this is also going on in Ireland. With the support of the big 4, it is also a forgone conclusion (although I hope not) just like Canada. Whatever the outcome, it will be a time of reflection and changes. But keep posting. People will read and reflect and may convince some to vote no.

I like to address #11. Employers and clients are pretty smart. UP to these days, employers who hire still ask for CA. (so we still maintain that premium) Those larger companies all continue to stick with the big 4. It did not benefit the members of the other accounting bodies in Canada. That is from my observation.

I am also surprised of the little opposition or negative news about this merger. It is shocking that no one is debating except here.
 
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Remember that online voting closes at 1pm today folks. You can vote in person at the SGM next Wednesday, but I am not sure if there is an online voting option specifically for that meeting.
If you haven't received your voting email, send en ameil to:
[email protected]
 
To be honest, I hadn't given much thought to this before reading through some of the comments and information provided in the various posts. I think it is scandalous when you look at the costs it is taking to run the CAI. My own situation is that I am looking at retirement probably next year and looking hard at even renewing my subscription for this year. Anyway, this has been an eye opener for me and even though it's not going to have a great effect on my own personal situation going forward, I have just voted against the amalgamation.
 
Staple said:
I am looking at retirement probably next year and looking hard at even renewing my subscription for this year.
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After I retired, I paid for a few years and when I called to ask if there was a reduce rate for retirees I was sent a Standard Financial Statement to apply for a reduced fee on the basis of affordability. I told them that they missed the point - it wasn't that I couldn't afford it, it was just that I was getting nothing for it but would be prepared to pay something. They said no - full fee or resign. So I resigned.

Then they wrote to me some months later saying that my application to resign was coming before a Council meeting and did I wish to progress it. I said yes and they wrote back a few weeks later that Council had approved my application to resign.

Whew!

Brendan Burgess XFCA
 
Brendan Burgess said:
After I retired, I paid for a few years and when I called to ask if there was a reduce rate for retirees I was sent a Standard Financial Statement to apply for a reduced fee on the basis of affordability. I told them that they missed the point - it wasn't that I couldn't afford it, it was just that I was getting nothing for it but would be prepared to pay something. They said no - full fee or resign. So I resigned.

Then they wrote to me some months later saying that my application to resign was coming before a Council meeting and did I wish to progress it. I said yes and they wrote back a few weeks later that Council had approved my application to resign.

Whew!

Brendan Burgess XFCA
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I asked them the same Brendan and got the same response about affordability etc, again missing the point. Do you actually need to inform them that you are resigning ?
 
Staple said:
Do you actually need to inform them that you are resigning ?
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It's a bit like the Catholic Church. You continue to be a member until you actually tell them to take you off their list.

But unlike the Catholic Church, if you stop paying your annual sub, they will eventually expel you. But they might try to collect the sub for the period up to expulsion.

I worked hard to get my ACA. I was a bit reluctant to resign. But when I see the messing in this thread, I can laugh out loud without feeling frustrated.

Brendan
 
ArthurMcB said:
This warrants scrutiny. Id like to know the top 10 salaries.
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There's some staff salary information here: glassdoor.ie/Salary/Chartered-Accountants-Ireland-Salaries-E1544462.htm
...but I don't know how recent or reliable it is.
The CEO is on €218k, plus bonus and pension of €56k (from the 2022 annual report). Nice work if you can get it.
 
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