Key Post Capital Gains Tax on sale of shares

Discussion in 'Tax' started by Brendan Burgess, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. Gordon Gekko

    Gordon Gekko Frequent Poster

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    With the caveat that I haven't reviewed the Evergreen Fund's prospectus, I would agree that you cannot use the loss.
     
  2. Sham82

    Sham82 New Member

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    Hi,thanks for the reply,one final question,sold shares last october, just wondering do i still have to declare to the revenue even if the gain is below the €1270 threshold,also which form do i fill out if i must,i am a paye worker,was looking at the cgt 1 form but it looks extremely complicated,thanks in advance
     
  3. Jordan Belfort

    Jordan Belfort Registered User

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    Is it mandatory to fill in the "Chargeable Assets" panel for any shares I purchased in 2015 ?

    I have other shares accumulated over last 15 years that have never been declared as "Chargeable Assets" but I do pay appropriate CGT on disposal. Is there any issue here ?
     
  4. Gordon Gekko

    Gordon Gekko Frequent Poster

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    Not in my experience.
     
  5. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: May 26, 2016
    I have a question about the CGT payment dates that Revenue sets out for the two parts of the tax year('initial period' - 1 January to 30 November, and 'later period' - 1 December to 31 December). I have a gain on sale of shares for the first part of the year. Going by the letter of the law, Revenue seem to expect payment of tax for the first gain by Dec 15th. However, I have a large loss that I plan to realise on other shares before the end of the tax year, which guarantees that my CGT liability will be zero. How does this work if I don't sell the loss-making shares until December? Revenues CGT1 booklet doesn't seem to cover the situation.

    (Obviously the easy answer is to just sell the loss-making shares earlier. However, trading on them is currently suspended, and could legally remain so for six months to October. In any case I'm interested in the general principle).
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  6. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
    How do FIFO rules apply to short selling?

    Example: I hold 5 shares in XYZ. Later I sell 5 shares short. This is effectively selling five shares I don't have. My original long position is still open in addition to the short sale. Then I close the short position, effectively buying the 5 shares I short sold. Later I finally sell the original five shares. On my trading account it is clear that I have had a long and short position open simultaneously. But a spreadsheet summary would show the sequence bought-sold-sought-sold. Under FIFO rules do I have to pretend that the short sale was the sale of the shares that I held long?

    EDIT: on reflection, the only thing that makes sense is to treat the short sale as a sale of shares already held.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
  7. louthguy

    louthguy Frequent Poster

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    I bought bank of Ireland shares 4 years ago and not looking to sell for years to come. what tax will I pay when I sell and im living in UAE past 5 years so will I still pay tax if I sell when moving back to Ireland or only on the years I am back there?
     
  8. sunnydonkey

    sunnydonkey Frequent Poster

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    The tax due depends on the tax residence when the disposal takes place, not on where you were in the intervening period. If UAE has no CGT, and the shares are in profit, it would be a good idea to consider selling them before you become Irish tax resident. You can buy them again once you are Irish resident and restart the CGT 'clock'.
    If you have any lossmaking shares, keep them until you become irish resident and dispose of them when you have Irish due profits to balance against them.

    CG is one of the most counter-productive taxes around as it negatively affects investor behaviour..
     
  9. mrcoffee

    mrcoffee New Member

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    I have a question about CGT on shares, I am mostly buying and selling US shares and I'm keeping my investment account on US $,
    When do I become liable to pay CGT? is it when I sell the shares (the cash would stay on US $ until i buy new shares) or when I exchange the cash from $ to EUR? thanks
     
  10. rob oyle

    rob oyle Frequent Poster

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    When the shares are sold.
     
  11. mrcoffee

    mrcoffee New Member

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    Thanks for your answer ... on another topic:
    Let's say that in the period January 2016 - November 2016 I made 30k profit buying and selling shares , in the same period I have lost 25k buying and selling shares, not a single share was ever held more than 4 weeks

    Do I understand correctly that I can't take losses into account and that I'm liable to pay 10k taxes? Basically 33% of CGT ON profits???
    It doesn't make any sense as ultimately I will walk away with less capital than I started :(
     
  12. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

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    Why do you think you can't offset losses? What assumptions are you making? Are you thinking about the 4-week rule, and if so what specifically have you done that means it applies? (You haven't given enough info as it depends on the class of shares bought and sold).
     
  13. mrcoffee

    mrcoffee New Member

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    Hi,
    hypotetic scenario : ordinary stock shares available on nasdaq and nyse,
    1st transaction 1st of July BUY 10000 APPLE (AAPL) at 90$
    2nd transaction 15th of July SELL 10000 APPLE (AAPL) at 100$

    3rd transaction 16th of July BUY 10000 NVIDIA (NVDA) at 100$
    4th transaction 20th of July SELL 1000 NVIDIA (NVDA) at 90$

    my understanding is that I can't offset the losses because the shares of NVDA were not held for more than 4 weeks but of course I'm still liable to pay CGT on the gain I made with AAPL - of course after taking into account exchange rates, exemptions etc...
     
  14. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

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    No. Revenue's wording is a little bit awkward, but there are actually two four-week rules. The first is about selling shares within four weeks of acquisition and it says that FIFO rules do not apply in this case. This would only apply in your example if you already held other AAPL or NVDA shares.

    The second four-week rule concerns buying shares again within four weeks of disposal, and then only if the disposal incurred a loss. The loss can only be offset against gains on the reacquired shares. In your example this would only apply if you bought NVDA again within four weeks of 20th of July. Otherwise you can use the loss for offsetting gains as normal.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/personal/buy-sell/shares.html#section4
    (Note: Revenue's heading of "Disposal of shares within four weeks of acquisition" is inaccurate because it also covers the completely separate case of reacquisition of shares within four weeks of disposal).
     
  15. Homer

    Homer Frequent Poster

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    I'm in a similar situation. Did you ever get an answer to your question dub_nerd?
     
  16. Gordon Gekko

    Gordon Gekko Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
    In my view, you do not pay the CGT if you have a gain in the first 11 months and an equivalent loss in December.

    Regarding the four week rules, the position is as follows:

    - If you sell a share at a loss and then buy it back within four weeks, that loss is ring-fenced and can only be offset against gains made on those same shares.

    - If you buy shares and sell them within four weeks, the normal "FIFO rule" doesn't apply, and the shares that you're selling for tax purposes are those actual shares.

    Interestingly, there is nothing to stop you "harvesting" existing capital losses (i.e. selling shares where you have a gain and immediately reacquiring them).
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  17. dub_nerd

    dub_nerd Frequent Poster

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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    Yes. There's a whole other thread on it over here. Bottom line is there is no need to pay CGT by the deadline for the first period if you are sure you are going to make a compensating loss in the second.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
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  18. Homer

    Homer Frequent Poster

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    Thanks.
     
  19. noelmurphydec25

    noelmurphydec25 New Member

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    Hello I am looking for some advice on paying CAT tax due next year. I received an inheritance from my Aunt in the US and it amounts to about 120K so about 30k tax to pay on the taxable 87k. However I had severe losses on sale of shares back in 2006 of about 80k which I never used or offset against any other tax. Can I carry forward my share losses to offset my CAT tax on my Aunts inheritance now? Thanks would really appreciate imput on this. Cheers
     
  20. noelmurphydec25

    noelmurphydec25 New Member

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    Losses forward
    If you make a loss on the disposal of assets, you can carry these forward and set them against future gains.

    You must use the losses first before using your annual exemption."


    Q: Hello I am looking for some advice on paying CAT tax due next year. I received an inheritance from my Aunt in the US this November and it amounts to about 120K so about 30k tax to pay on the taxable 87k. However I had severe losses on sale of shares back in 2006 of about 80k which I never used or offset against any other tax. Can I carry forward my 2006 share losses to offset my CAT tax on my Aunts inheritance now? Thanks would really appreciate imput on this. Cheers