Builders sue buyers to complete contracts

mf1

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You know the answer yourself.

It depends. On the case, on the parties, on the reasons, on the judge.

These are very uncharted waters. There is no simple , cure all , one size fits all, answers.

mf
 

andycole

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A serious lack of proper regulation exists- procedures that have to be followed by both a buyer and builder - buying off the plans guidlines - fair contracts and building agreements that are regulated not just independently by the CFI - but independently.

Basically the government have allowed Banks and associated Developers to do what they want.

It just not on that a civic matter such as buying a home off the plans, or any newly built home from a builder is unchartered waters...in terms of what can go wrong..etc
 

mf1

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A serious lack of proper regulation exists- procedures that have to be followed by both a buyer and builder - buying off the plans guidlines - fair contracts and building agreements that are regulated not just independently by the CFI - but independently.

Basically the government have allowed Banks and associated Developers to do what they want.

It just not on that a civic matter such as buying a home off the plans, or any newly built home from a builder is unchartered waters...in terms of what can go wrong..etc
Life is messy. So is law.

mf
 

AlbacoreA

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Life is messy. So is law.

mf
It doesn't have to be messy, most of these situations are very simple. No average house should take longer than 2 yrs to build. All housing should have a minimum standard.
 

Ruam

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Basically the government have allowed Banks and associated Developers to do what they want.
FF always look after their buddies. It was builders and developers who bankrolled FF so it's no surprise they didn't regulate the situation as they didn't want to upset their pay masters.

Ruam
 

andycole

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Yep I agree with the last few opinions as well - how's buying a house supposed to be messy? It should be a well regulated, established civic business transaction - It is in most other countries - look to the UK that have specific building laws about completion periods in contracts and how they affect buyers who have bought off the plans, first time buyers..
Look at Australia as well.

Some conditions in these new types of building contracts - especially from developers who in the last few years were doing what they wanted - completely unreasonable -

Why is the content in Brochures not legally binding? I mean they exist only to induce people to buy? So if someone buys off the plans what's wrong in using a Brochure as a guide if it comes to Court?
 

andycole

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Yep - and that says it all -
Buy an expensive watch, engagement ring with diamonds etc
You are protected by Consumer Law and established Rights..
But buy off the plans in the middle of a housing bubble your fecked!!
 

mf1

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"Why is the content in Brochures not legally binding? I mean they exist only to induce people to buy? So if someone buys off the plans what's wrong in using a Brochure as a guide if it comes to Court? "

This, I am afraid, is a very clear example of how people do not understand what they were doing when they were doing it and what has happened now that it has happened. All the whinging and whining in the world is not going to change the fact that purchasers freely, without pressure from anyone, signed contracts and would have signed contracts if it included a clause offering their first born. We have now hit a huge downturn which, while obvious in hindsight, was not obvious enough for people who freely signed their contracts.

"But buy off the plans in the middle of a housing bubble your fecked!! "

You said it. If you cannot understand that this is precisely what the problem is, then there is little that anyone can say that will stop the bleating.

mf
 

andycole

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mf1 -

yes these are the two clearest examples of how easy it was for a first time buyer to get into some difficulty now -
yes what is on the brochure was very appealing - defintely influences the purchase along with the show apartments that were on display - smarthomes technology etc etc.. wow

exactly the housing bubble - at least no one is denying now that there was one - is part of the cause of a lot of trouble -

but no - dont agree that this one reason for all of the trouble -
the lack of regulation is still a valid critism - its debatable if there was proper regulation that there would have been a housing bubble? -
probably there would not have been if the regulation was in place? -
 

mf1

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All I can say to your last point is that the builders got a lot of breaks, the banks got a lot of freedom and we, as a nation, continued to vote in the party that was allowing/facilitating it all.

That is the nature of a democracy. I remember when FF got in the last time - it should not have happened but it did because people, on the whole, are greedy and selfish and love credit and flashness and the feelgood factor over sense, sensibility, stability and long term policies for a better society.

mf
 

ben10

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"Why is the content in Brochures not legally binding? I mean they exist only to induce people to buy? So if someone buys off the plans what's wrong in using a Brochure as a guide if it comes to Court? "

This, I am afraid, is a very clear example of how people do not understand what they were doing when they were doing it and what has happened now that it has happened. All the whinging and whining in the world is not going to change the fact that purchasers freely, without pressure from anyone, signed contracts and would have signed contracts if it included a clause offering their first born. We have now hit a huge downturn which, while obvious in hindsight, was not obvious enough for people who freely signed their contracts.

mf
People not understanding what they were doing?? How is anyone expected to buy a house then? Are we all supposed to complete a law degree before buying? No, our solicitors are there for that & we hope that they are covering all angles. In most cases they are but this country has allowed the developers dictate what they can & cannot do.
It is ridiculous that the brochures are not binding, afterall if you bought a can of sugar free coke & inside the can was normal coke you will be intitled to a refund! Why on earth should it be different in the housing market!?! ......in my case both the brochure AND the contract were different to the finished article yet the developer is still holding my money & wants me to move in!?!? Could you imagine this in your grocery store??
 

mf1

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Perhaps if you did not use so many exclamation marks, it would be easier........

As I understand your position, what has been built is not as per contract and specification. There does not appear to be any real argument about that - save that whether it amounts to a full breach of contract or just a minor breach remains to be decided. You seem to have good legal advice. You have to slug it out - there is no quick fix.

Many of the people who are posting on this site are primarily frustrated because they don't think that bad things ever happen but if they are to happen, it should be to someone else and not to them. So they rant, whinge and bleat.

Buying a house is a big decision - probably the first major decision any of us have to make. Many of my clients freely admit that they are far more concerned about their flooring and window dressing than they are about the practicalities/legalities of going through the contract and building agreement. I ( and I think many other solicitors) copy these to the clients with detailed notes . Most of my clients freely admit that they don't read these notes. They know that this is their own decision but they see me as in loco parentis - as in I should be held responsible if it all goes tots up.

Its not hard to work out that it is a lot easier to buy something that exists - as in already built. BUT the breaks for purchasers of new builds off contract have blinded purchasers to What-ifs?.

mf
 

AlbacoreA

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My experience was of being rushed through a contract and pushed to complete. So much so we changed solicitor. I think conveyancing was a much as cash cow as anything else was in the boom. I don't think everyone has the same standards.
 

Kate10

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During the boom many contracts issued with a clause specifically excluding markerting material from the contract - i.e. the clause said that nothing in marketing brochures formed part of the contract. However, the High Court ruled a number of years ago that a clause of this nature is a unfair condiiton in a consumer contract - so that if an ordinary person bought a house from a developer they should be entitled to rely on information provided to them by an estate agent or developer, at least to a limited extent.

I agree that our system of conveying property is outdated and needs reform. But the real issue today is that ordinary people did insane things during the boom. At least 75% of the people who are coming to see me now in serious trouble either never saw a solicitor at all (paid small deposits for expensive properties off plan in other countries that they could never afford, intended to flip, and never saw a solicitor here or in the relevant country) or got good advice from their solicitor but didn't listen. People were so caught up that when a solicitor went through onerous terms and conditions in contracts, they just switched off and thought of it as irrelevant red tape stuff.

I have been at meetings with clients where I have gone through contracts and building agreements in detail. I would say one in five purchasers during the boom listened attentively and asked questions. The rest spaced out. What can I do in those circumstances? I write to clients to make sure I have it on record that I advised them propertly, but I can't force them to listen or act responsibly.

I think some banks behaved very irresponsibly during the boom. Some of the facilities advanced were absolutely nuts. But the borrowers were worse. People who wouldn't bet €10 in the local bookies were willing to pay €20k deposits for foreign properties they never even saw. They signed contracts knowing that they could never afford to complete the purchase themselves, but hoping to sell the property on when completed at a profit. In other words, they gambled, and they gambled with money they did not have. Many "investors" in Irish properties were also property speculators and gamblers. Now that things have gone the other way very few of them are willing to accept responsibility for their own decisions.
 

AlbacoreA

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Its wasn't just ordinary people doing insane things...

Some solicitors made the headlines
 

Kate10

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You're dead right there Albacore. Believe me, that is a very bitter pill to swallow for solicitors too. Our insurance costs and compensation fund contributions are all going up as a result so the profession is paying for the criminal acts of a few.
 

foxylady

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1,461
You're dead right there Albacore. Believe me, that is a very bitter pill to swallow for solicitors too. Our insurance costs and compensation fund contributions are all going up as a result so the profession is paying for the criminal acts of a few.

Can anyone tell me how to enforce this
"insolvency of Contractor".It states that should the Contractor enter liquidation etc you may "determine the agreement whereupon the contractor shall be entitled to payment for actual work done by him".
 

Kate10

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Hi foxylady,

Is your builder in liquidation? I would have your solicitor confirm this first. Then you need to find out if any work has been carried out to the property.

The clause might not be much help to you if lots of work was carried out and if you were buying an apartment. The intention behind the clause is that you could get rid of the existing builder, paying him the cost of the work carried out to date only, then hire a new builder to finish the work. If you are talking about an apartment block that is partially completed you will be in a very difficult situation.

If no work at all has been carried out then now might be a good time to talk to your solicitor.

Kate.
 

foxylady

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1,461
Hi foxylady,

Is your builder in liquidation? I would have your solicitor confirm this first. Then you need to find out if any work has been carried out to the property.

The clause might not be much help to you if lots of work was carried out and if you were buying an apartment. The intention behind the clause is that you could get rid of the existing builder, paying him the cost of the work carried out to date only, then hire a new builder to finish the work. If you are talking about an apartment block that is partially completed you will be in a very difficult situation.

If no work at all has been carried out then now might be a good time to talk to your solicitor.

Kate.

Builder has been granted examinership. It is an apt that was purchased 3 yrs ago to be comleted last year and is not built although they had started. My solicitor doesnt seem to know his a***e from his elbow and is looking to raise his fee for all his work???????????
 
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