"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

WolfeTone said:
True, but fundamental to their approach was the absence of functioning democratic institutions in which to place trust and pursue those aims. The last time nationalist community tried the peaceful route through the civil rights movement they got their answer in spades.
Its a tragedy, and it is not to condone violence. It is a reality, not just in Ireland, but universally, if you block the path to peaceful protest with systemic violence then do not be surprised if people bite back.
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Sure, but that block could have been removed with Sunningdale and was mostly removed with the imposition by the British Government of direct rule and the removal of the Apartheid Northern Irish Government and even more so with the Anglo Irish Agreement yet they still thought nothing of blowing up children and pensioners.
It was only when it became politically advantageous for them that they stopped killing people, took off the balaclava and pretended that they were different people to the ones who did the killing.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
No one is denying anybody any rights. Typical republican reaction, argue that they are "wrong" and they bleat about denial of rights.
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Im not claiming anybodys rights are being denied. Im simply arguing the against the "now is not the time" brigade in favour of "now is always the time".
At the moment, the "now is not the time" brigade have the ascendency. I dont agree with it, but I accept it. Their premise however, is conditioned with a large dollop of "we dont want to upset those kids with the petrol bombs"...which is kind of contradictory to their long held views of standing up to terrorism.
 
Purple said:
but that block could have been removed with Sunningdale
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"could have been", being the appropriate word....Sunningdale, although in substance mirrors GFA, it was a harder sell when you still had hundreds of people interned without trial. A significant factor behind the momentum of GFA was prisoner releases. As Mo Mowlam stated herself, without prisoner releases there would have been no GFA.
 
Purple said:
Very selective quoting there @WolfeTone
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I'm not sure how @Purple? I get the whole GFA is Sunningdale for slow learners quip, and it is true to a large extent. But I consider it a bit more nuanced than simply pointing to the extremists on both sides. The centrists did not exactly hold themselves up in great light either. Whatever about republicans, the State involvement in the murder and cover-up of many, many innocent lives, policies of criminalisation, shoot-to-kill, collusion, internment, deeply embedded the mistrust.
Thankfully, people in the centre like Hume, and Mowlam, would "cut through conventions and made difficult decisions that gave momentum to political progress" and prevail over rigid, inflexible approach of others over the 25yrs previous.
 
WolfeTone said:
Thankfully, people in the centre like Hume, and Mowlam, would "cut through conventions and made difficult decisions that gave momentum to political progress" and prevail over rigid, inflexible approach of others over the 25yrs previous.
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Hume wasn't in the centre. That's the problem with a tribal conflict; there is no centre.
The tribe that is Unionism finds that the ship to who's mast is nailed it's colours forgot about them and sailed off into the distance. They now find themselves looking at the strong possibility of a SF first minister and a SF government in this country, along with the possibility of their tribal cousins in Scotland upping sticks and buggering off as well.

If the last 50 years has thought is anything it should be that imposing the will of the majority on an unwilling minority isn't always the right thing to do.
If Unionism is defined by what it isn't then first and foremost it isn't part of this country. In a new compromise Ireland they will simply disappear within a few generations. They know that, we know that and the British know that but only they see that as a bad thing.
They'll still bang their drums and wear their silly hats and their silly sashes and all that stuff but they are sustained by the lifeblood of sectarianism and we just don't hate them enough. It's like Celtic and Rangers; without the other they are nothing. Therefore they'll just ebb away.

Ironically Joe Biden's push for a global corporation tax rate may well help keep this island divided because if he gets his way our economy is screwed and nobody want's to jump onto a sinking ship.
 
Purple said:
Hume wasn't in the centre.
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I'm defining the centre as a majority of people who are unequivocal and in steadfast agreement with each other with regard to particular standpoint.
In terms of the standpoint for using violence as a means to an end, I consider Hume to be placed in the majority position of opposing the use of violence.
In that regard he was very much in the centre.
 
WolfeTone said:
The standpoint of being unequivocal about the use of violence for political aims.
I'm of the view the majority of people of NI did not endorse or participate in using violence.
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I dunno, plenty turned a blind eye.

It's like the socially deprived areas of Dublin (inaccurately called working class areas) where people say they are against criminality and drugs but refer to the Gardaí as pigs and anyone who does their legal and civic duty and cooperates with the Gardaí is called a rat.
 
Purple said:
I dunno, plenty turned a blind eye.
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Sure did, but I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about ordinary citizens who made sure not to get involved, at a minimum. It cannot have been easy for many.
Purple said:
It's like the socially deprived areas of Dublin (inaccurately called working class areas) where people say they are against criminality and drugs
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Or the socially affluent areas where they say they are against criminality and drugs but simultaneously fuel the drug trade with cocaine parties. And 20yr old apprentice plumbers get shot dead in working class areas to facilitate the enablers.

Anthony Campbell
 
WolfeTone said:
Or the socially affluent areas where they say they are against criminality and drugs but simultaneously fuel the drug trade with cocaine parties. And 20yr old apprentice plumbers get shot dead in working class areas to facilitate the enablers.

Anthony Campbell
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I think there is a higher proportion of people in category who view the Gardaí as pigs in socially deprived areas than there are people who have cocaine (or any other class A drug) parties in affluent areas. It's also fair to say that drug use is an issue in every area of Irish society and cocaine use at parties is at least as common in socially deprived areas.

Off topic but Anthony Campbell's death should have shocked people more but he was from the North Inner City so he didn't matter. By the same token when a socialite from a "good" background dies of a drug overdose it's a tragic death but when someone from the same background as Anthony Campbell does the same thing they are just a Junkie.

By the way, calling someone a Junkie is the same as calling a black person by the N word. There's no other form of addiction that is criminalised. We don't send gamblers or alcoholics to prison and we certainly don't send Bookies and Publicans to prison but I digress even further.

The kids from Loyalist areas of Belfast aren't throwing petrol bombs because they are upset by the details of the Northern Ireland Protocol, they are mainly doing it because they have been left behind by their government, their education system and their political leaders. It's only when you spend time in those areas that you realise that they are worse than any area in this country with a young population which is vastly less educated or equipped to engage with mainstream modern society.
 
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Michael McDowell has an excellent piece about Sinn Fein and their masters in todays Irish Times.
 
As regards the "now is not the time brigade" - of which I am one, 23 years on from GFA, is there not an element of 'NI is how it is because that's how people there want it?', which maybe leads us to 'if it ain't broke (more than they like it broke), don't fix it'.

The B Specials, the UDR and RUC have gone, there's universal sufferage, powersharing in government, no longer a sectarian bar on employment, education, housing, benefits, an invisible border. The goals of NICRA have been met, what more do people in NI want? Of course there's also a highly segregated community, getting to Uni before encountering 'the other', very little genuine powersharing, but whose fault is that?, and is a United Ireland going to make one bit of positive difference to that? By consistently voting in SF & DUP it seems they like the whole sectarian headcount offered by both. Alliance and SDLP hanging on are the only rays of light.

I'll vote for a UI, 4th green field, but the real vote is in the 6, and I'm not sure why 'the fight' that's been bubbling for 400 years won't go for another 100 even within the 32 (as it did for the first 300). So regardless of the outcome of a border poll, and while we might unite territory, it seems we're nearly as far away as ever from uniting people - & again maybe that's how they like it (grim and all as that may appear). I'd love to eat my words if they started to vote for other parties......

The only plus I'd see is if they disband Stormont, put them all into the Dáil, and hopefully move beyond the drivel that dominates Stormont - the drivel can be about "normal" political issues.
 
I note that the Secretary of State is required to call a border poll when s/he thinks it “likely” that it would be carried. Neither the Scottish Indyref nor the Brexit ref would have passed a “likely” test.
A worst case scenario is 50% + 1. Maybe the “likely” test reduces this possibility. But when opinion polls are showing 50/50 the calls for a border poll will be deafening.
 
Betsy Og said:
The goals of NICRA have been met, what more do people in NI want?
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You could say that about the 26 also - independent, sovereign nation, what more could we want?
But poll after poll shows strong support for a UI, not least from yourself.

Betsy Og said:
I'll vote for a UI, 4th green field,
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Betsy Og said:
it seems we're nearly as far away as ever from uniting people - & again maybe that's how they like it (grim and all as that may appear).
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I agree there are profound and deep divisions remaining. But in recent years I get a sense of a soft Unionist vote open to the idea of a new Ireland. Just a glimmer, that is. Recent comments from Peter Robinson and Paisley Jnr suggest a realisation that change is a constant, and that they need to prepare for it, in a constitutional sense. What that change entails Im not sure.
 
Purple said:
Is there a danger that if the winds of change are too strong they could blow that glimmer out?
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Absolutely. But while the recent protestations and violence over the sea 'border' highlight the deep divisions, in retrospect, these protests are turning out to be a damp squib relative to the protests of yore. The likes of Jim Allister would like to portray the NI Protocol as big as a constitutional threat to NI as say, the Anglo-Irish agreement, or Sunningdale before it.
What Jim fails to grasp, is that 23yrs ago the people of NI signed up to the GFA, and the lives of everyone are, slowly, adjusting to an atmosphere akin to normal Western civility.

There are no mass Paisley type protests. The violence emanates from a minority within the unionist communities. A recent fundraiser to financially support a legal challenge against the NI protocol fell €90,000 short.

The NI protocol is not a constitutional issue, not an identity issue, it is an administrative procedure. One that is causing some delays at customs posts, but no doubt will be resolved in due course by the people who are trained and paid to manage this stuff, customs officials.
 
It is still a very unnatural position, I would guess unique, that there are border customs between parts of the same jurisdiction, at least not without the consent of both parties. That the natural position of leaving it to customs officials to manage the stuff across the political border is a big sign to unionists that nobody really supports their cause.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
I would guess unique, that there are border customs between parts of the same jurisdiction,
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Not so sure, I recall encountering US border posts in Dublin Airport on my way to New York. Most countries afford sovereignty to foreign embassies within their own jurisdiction.
It can be done, borders are just state of mind.

Duke of Marmalade said:
at least not without the consent of both parties
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On the contrary, both parties - the Govt of the UK (supported by its parliament and Crown) and the EU Commission consent to this arrangement.
 
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