"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[Duke of Marmalade]

I see our Presie is snubbing the "celebration" of the 100 years of partition even though Queenie will be there and all the churches. It's a difficult one but on balance I don't agree with totally contrived and disingenuous gestures like commemorating the RIC. But it's a pity to see him falling out with Queenie, they seemed so suited to each other.

 

[Purple]

Many of the Unionist people in NI would not agree with you.

Many consider themselves British and not Irish.

They consider themselves British from Ireland. They are British and Irish just as loyalist Welsh and Scottish people are Welsh and Scottish as well as British.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

They consider themselves British from Ireland. They are British and Irish just as loyalist Welsh and Scottish people are Welsh and Scottish as well as British.

I think on balance I'm with @cremeegg on this sideshow. I think for example that Scots who vote for the union still regard themselves as first and foremost Scottish with a minor attachment to Britishness, their unionism is purely pragmatic.
I know we are all descended from Adam and Eve but none of us feel any remaining attachment to Mesopatamia (Iraq) on that count. The milliion French people in Algeria did not see themselves as Algerians. Although northern protestants are not quite in that bracket most do not feel an attachment to Ireland. And this attitude has been hardened many fold by the pointless and deeply immoral sectarian campaign waged against them and the puerile posturing over curry me yoghurt.

 

[joe sod]

I see our Presie is snubbing the "celebration" of the 100 years of partition even though Queenie will be there and all the churches. It's a difficult one but on balance I don't agree with totally contrived and disingenuous gestures like commemorating the RIC. But it's a pity to see him falling out with Queenie, they seemed so suited to each other.

Really stupid of him, it's a fact anyway whether he likes it or not, it's inextricably linked with the foundation of this country and the civil war that followed. If de Valera and Collins in all their youthful prime were not able to change that fact a small old man president a century later is certainly not going to change anything, completely futile and stupid.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Really stupid of him, it's a fact anyway whether he likes it or not, it's inextricably linked with the foundation of this country and the civil war that followed. If de Valera and Collins in all their youthful prime were not able to change that fact a small old man president a century later is certainly not going to change anything, completely futile and stupid.

I am presuming Mickie had no say in the matter, no more than Queenie. Mickie attending a celebration of partition would be speaking for this Government and its people. I am all for the 6 counties having the right to split off from the 26 but it would be the height of disingenuousness for representatives of the 26 to celebrate that parting.

 

[Purple]

I presume Lizzie won't be in the Pro Cathedral with a Easter Lillie any time soon so wee Mickie D shouldn't be stepping out in Belfast for their equivalent bash.
It is possible that if the people of Belfast were exposed one of our greatest ever thinkers, philosophers and poets and pound for pound the greatest living Irishman, they will flock to the Nationalist cause.

It's also possible that his reasons for going would be politicised, and god knows he's never politicise the office, and Mickey would be lost in the long grass (in his case literally).

 

[WolfeTone]

I would suggest that it is Gaelic culture, a culture which is intrinsically linked with the Catholic natives that is anathema to Northern Unionist Protestants rather than Ireland or being 'Irish'.
No doubt the most recent conflict has done damage to the identification of 'Irish' in the eyes of many Protestant Unionists but it has not dispelled it. Nor more than brow beating of 'Ulster is British!' and British government rule has for 100yrs has abjectly failed to quash the sense of Irish identity for those living in NI.

Ian Paisley Snr admitted himself he was an Irishman and leaders like Peter Robinson have also said it. Faced with the bare-faced fact that the giant of Unionism, Edward Carson, was a proud Dublin Irishman, it is puerile for some of the Northern Irish Unionists to deny their Irishness. But deny it they do.

The root cause of this denial lays with partition. A border borne out of nothing but a supremacist belief of the Protestant faith, a sectarian hatred of Catholics and by association a contempt for Gaelic culture (their own culture that their ancestry is entwined with) that they deny it. A century of futile 'Ulsterisation' followed.

 

[WolfeTone]

I am all for the 6 counties having the right to split off from the 26 but it would be the height of disingenuousness for representatives of the 26 to celebrate that parting.

I agree. And as we have mentioned before, we don't even celebrate the coming into being of the 26.

I presume Lizzie won't be in the Pro Cathedral with a Easter Lillie any time soon

In fairness to her, she did attend the Garden of Remembrance and bowed her head to our patriot dead. All those who gave their lives for the cause of Irish freedom.
I'm sure Bobby Sands enjoyed that.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I am reminded of a quip on a gable wall in Londonderry in the '60s. It read "to hell with the pope and Arkle". It was the Arkle bit that amused me. Arkle was actually owned by an English aristocrat but "gaelic" Ireland was wallowing in the exploits of our greatest ever athlete. Many years later the gable walls of protestant Belfast mocked "Cry Babies" referring to Englishman, John Aldridge crying after the ROI defeat by Mexico in a World Cup match.
Whilst respectable protestant areas would not resort to writing on their gable walls they harboured the same disdain for their Southern neighbours. Also a sense of superiority borne out of the economic track record of the basket case free state. They also ask with a sense of their own superiority "where would the Titanic be today if it was not for the good protestant working men of Belfast?". They never really believed in the Celtic Tiger, thought it was just cute hoorism milking the Common Market, I am not sure they were entirely wrong.

 

[Purple]

They also ask with a sense of their own superiority "where would the Titanic be today if it was not for the good protestant working men of Belfast?".

That one always amuses me. The obvious answer is 'floating'.

 

[Purple]

I would suggest that it is Gaelic culture, a culture which is intrinsically linked with the Catholic natives that is anathema to Northern Unionist Protestants rather than Ireland or being 'Irish'.
No doubt the most recent conflict has done damage to the identification of 'Irish' in the eyes of many Protestant Unionists but it has not dispelled it. Nor more than brow beating of 'Ulster is British!' and British government rule has for 100yrs has abjectly failed to quash the sense of Irish identity for those living in NI.

Ian Paisley Snr admitted himself he was an Irishman and leaders like Peter Robinson have also said it. Faced with the bare-faced fact that the giant of Unionism, Edward Carson, was a proud Dublin Irishman, it is puerile for some of the Northern Irish Unionists to deny their Irishness. But deny it they do.

The root cause of this denial lays with partition. A border borne out of nothing but a supremacist belief of the Protestant faith, a sectarian hatred of Catholics and by association a contempt for Gaelic culture (their own culture that their ancestry is entwined with) that they deny it. A century of futile 'Ulsterisation' followed.

And you want them in our country? Are you mad?

 

[WolfeTone]

And you want them in our country? Are you mad?

The ending of partition is best way forward to bringing these ancient mindsets into the 21st century.
Bringing this Catholic / Protestant division to an end over time. Partition just perpetuates it.

 

[Purple]

The ending of partition is best way forward to bringing these ancient mindsets into the 21st century.
Bringing this Catholic / Protestant division to an end over time. Partition just perpetuates it.

But sure they're happy, leave them as it.

 

[WolfeTone]

But sure they're happy, leave them as it.

I'm quite happy to leave them at it.

Far from their mantra of wanting to strengthen the union with UK, their blind indulgence of their own self-importance is what destabilised the union with Britain in 1914, leading to partition and the unleashing of fringe Irish Republican ideals as the predominant political sentiment of Irish people.

And now they are doing it again, propelling invisible sea borders and the lack of sausages from England as an attack on sovereignty. Personally, I think it is an obvious attack on NI sausage makers, but there you go - it's their call.

It all feeds into exposing the demise of outdated and bankrupt ideology of Irish Unionism.

I'm quite happy to let them at it.

 

[Purple]

I'm quite happy to leave them at it.

Far from their mantra of wanting to strengthen the union with UK, their blind indulgence of their own self-importance is what destabilised the union with Britain in 1914, leading to partition and the unleashing of fringe Irish Republican ideals as the predominant political sentiment of Irish people.

And now they are doing it again, propelling invisible sea borders and the lack of sausages from England as an attack on sovereignty. Personally, I think it is an obvious attack on NI sausage makers, but there you go - it's their call.

It all feeds into exposing the demise of outdated and bankrupt ideology of Irish Unionism.

I'm quite happy to let them at it.

I'd agree except I don't want us to have to deal with them. I like this place the way it is, faults and all.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And now they are doing it again, propelling invisible sea borders...

Yeah, what's their big problem? A few teenage yobos having fun throwing petrol bombs.
Now if they had put the paperwork where it should be - at the border between the EU and the UK, then we would have seen some serious action as Leo graphically explained to his EU counterparts by showing pictures of bombed out border posts. He probably also reminded them as an aside of atrocities like Kingsmills which would naturally follow such a grotesque affront to nationalist sensibilities.

 

[WolfeTone]

Yeah, what's their big problem? A few teenage yobos having fun throwing petrol bombs.

Yes, about sums it up.

I see there was an anti-Irish language protest in the North also.
5 people turned up. Was that you?

 

[cremeegg]

fringe Irish Republican ideals as the predominant political sentiment of Irish people.

Only, you, The Duke, and Ruth Dudley Edwards, oh and how could I forget Eoghan Harris, believe that.

 

[WolfeTone]

Only, you, The Duke, and Ruth Dudley Edwards, oh and how could I forget Eoghan Harris, believe that.

I can only go by what the people voted for in general elections. What would you go by?

In 1910 one year after the massive welcome on the streets of Dublin to the visit of Queen Victoria, the Irish Parliamentary party, whose mandate was for a limited form of independence from Britain through a Home Rule parliament, won 85 seats in Westminster and duly took those seats swearing allegiance to the British Crown.
By 1914, in the height of the Home Crisis, the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party John Redmond committed to secure Irish borders in defence of the British realm and advocated for Irish men to support Britains war effort in Europe.
Many answered the call, dwarfing any numbers that would answer the call for Irelands fight for full independence from Britain.

By 1918, this was reduced to 6. SF, took 73 seats and this is broadly interpreted as the people of Irelands endorsement of full independence from Britain.

If 73 seats for SF in1918 is an endorsement for full independence. Then 85 seats in 1910 for IPP was surely an endorsement to remain wedded to biggest Empire in the world?

And in between, the Home Rule parliament for Ireland, achieved through exclusively peaceful and democratic means was usurped by the refusal of Irish Unionists to accept the will of the British Parliament. Instead they formed an armed paramilitary organisation and threatened civil war.
In doing so, they destabilised the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Unleashing the 1916 rebellion and ultimately the partition of the country and a century littered with violence.

 

[cremeegg]

You make your point well, but there are some other considerations.

In 1910 no women and only men who met the property qualification could vote. The total poll was just over 200,000 votes.

In 1918 all women over 30 and all men over 21 could vote. The total poll was just over 1 million votes. Despite there being no poll in 25 constituencies where SF were unopposed.

In 1910 the IPP still held the loyalty of a large section of the population. It achievements during the 'land war' were enormous and that gave it huge residual support.

There was almost no organised Republican political movement. Most people would simply not have seen an Independent Republic as within the realm of the possible.

When Clarke, Pearse and Connolly put Republicanism on the stage the people responded enthusiastically.

The welcome given Victoria and the jeering of the defeated in 1916 I put down to a Dublin thing