"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[Peanuts20]

We can't hold a commemoration for the former police force of this Island. Now it's being held in London. The Shinners won't attend a commemoration for two Gardaí murdered by the IRA. It speaks volumes about the gulf between our supposed aspiration to have a united Ireland and the reality of what would be involved.
Mick Clifford has a good take on it here.

it is slowly starting to change, not uncommon now to see commemerations and memorials to those who died in the First World War. Midleton is a case in point, it has a mass grave to 13 IRA men killed in Clonmult and elsewhere in the War of Independence, a few hundred yards away in the main town park is a memorial to locals who fought and died in WW1.

I've the same level of "schizophrenia" in my family. My granduncle headed off in 1916 for the aborted rising in Cork, 2 years later he walked his younger sister down the aisle in Cobh when she married a Chief Petty Officer from Windsor. Another sister emigrated and married a Captain who subsequently served with the Chindits in Burma. In my house growing up, we had a styleised picture of the GPO on one wall whilst in a tin box sat some old IRA medals and some trench art that some other family member brought back in 1917.

I've heard IRA bombs go off, Canary Wharf being one of them when I lived in England where for the most part I was openly welcomed and I love London and it's people as a result. And yet, when it comes to commemerating the RIC, I can't help but think of the family story of the Tans and RIC men who raided the family farm (twice) and threatened to shoot my Granny if she didn't show them where the guns were (she didn't, they were in the hayshed, or so our story goes)

It's not straightforward and black and white.

 

[Purple]

I agree @Peanuts20 , history is never binary and when we try to present it as such we lose any chance to reconcile our differences.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

We can't hold a commemoration for the former police force of this Island. Now it's being held in London. The Shinners won't attend a commemoration for two Gardaí murdered by the IRA. It speaks volumes about the gulf between our supposed aspiration to have a united Ireland and the reality of what would be involved.
Mick Clifford has a good take on it here.

I think the absence of the Shinner from the commemoration of the two Gardai murdered by the 'RA in 1940 is much more sinister. Can there be any doubt that his attendance would have incurred the wrath of Army Council on the Falls Road?

 

[Purple]

I think the absence of the Shinner from the commemoration of the two Gardai murdered by the 'RA in 1940 is much more sinister. Can there be any doubt that his attendance would have incurred the wrath of Army Council on the Falls Road?

Yes, I think we got to peek behind the curtain there. I do think that Mary Lou and even Fierce Doherty are democrats but their strings are still being pulled by the real leadership.

 

[WolfeTone]

I think the absence of the Shinner from the commemoration of the two Gardai murdered by the 'RA in 1940 is much more sinister.

That's interesting, I'm intrigued why you would think the failure of a SF rep to attend the commemoration of two murdered Irish police officers is more sinister than the entire political establishment being incapable of holding a commemoration, in this State, for murdered Irish police officers?

 

[Purple]

@WolfeTone, were you in favour of the RIC commemoration and would you attend if it took place?

 

[WolfeTone]

@WolfeTone, were you in favour of the RIC commemoration and would you attend if it took place?

I had no objection to it. I wouldnt attend but only because I have no linkage to the RIC not because of any principle.
The families of officers who died or were killed in the course of their duties deserve to be remembered.

 

[WolfeTone]

Wriggle me this @Duke of Marmalade

That's interesting, I'm intrigued why you would think the failure of a SF rep to attend the commemoration of two murdered Irish police officers is more sinister than the entire political establishment being incapable of holding a commemoration, in this State, for murdered Irish police officers?

 

[Purple]

That's interesting, I'm intrigued why you would think the failure of a SF rep to attend the commemoration of two murdered Irish police officers is more sinister than the entire political establishment being incapable of holding a commemoration, in this State, for murdered Irish police officers?

In my view the issue is that while we should commemorate the dead of a police force which was an instrument of colonial rule it was not the police force of this country. The Shinners want to run the country and be in charge of the Gardaí but they refuse to commemorate two murdered members of that police force because the IRA's army council, which runs SF, told them they can't. I don't want any political party which is run from a foreign country running this country. I find that sinister.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Wriggle me this @Duke of Marmalade

@Purple has already given an adequate response. But I will give more colour on my own position.
Firstly on the RIC commemoration thing I think it is all a bit contrived. Though I suspect that if I had been around in those days I would have been an RIC supporter, the fact is that we celebrate our gaining of independence 100 years ago. My understanding is that the RIC were a major obstacle to gaining that goal. Honouring their efforts sounds oh so mature but for many a tad too far and not really honest
But the 'RA murdering the Gardai of our independent state is a very different kettle of fish. The SF attitude suggests that McDowell is right. At its core that organisation does not respect our constitution and believes that it is the legitimate army of this country and that the Gardai are the enemy.

 

[WolfeTone]

it was not the police force of this country.

It was the police force of this country. A police force made up almost exclusively of Irish people, with families in Ireland.

Try again.

Firstly on the RIC commemoration thing I think it is all a bit contrived

Contrived by who? The relatives of those whose ancestors were members of the RIC?
Take a day off will ya?
The commemoration was not about propelling the institution of the RIC as some gallant and noble organisation that has regretfully ceased to be.

It was part of a series of commemorations of the lives lost during the bloody period. An acknowledgement, that regardless which side of the fence you sit, lives were lost, families torn apart.
The commemoration was part of the States effort to heal wounds and move on from the bloody and divisive past.
So I ask again, how sinister is it that this State cannot hold such a commemoration within its own borders?

the fact is that we celebrate our gaining of independence 100 years ago.

Point to me one single State celebration of our 'independence'.

 

[Purple]

It was the police force of this country.

No, it wasn't. This country didn't exist back then. We were part of the United Kingdom of great Britain and Ireland. The RIC was a police force of that country and, as has been pointed out, as well as being a police force were an instrument of British control and were protagonists on the side of the Crown forces during the War of Independence.
The Gardaí are the police force of this country. Commemorating their members who were murdered by terrorists who were attacking this country is not a political or controversial act except to those who still support those terrorists and their view that the police, armed forces and judiciary of this country are their enemies.

Try again.

 

[Purple]

The commemoration was part of the States effort to heal wounds and move on from the bloody and divisive past.

It was organised at the request of members of the Gardaí. I think they should have gone ahead, in the interests of sucking up to the Unionists. It's still a world away from elected politicians refusing to commemorate murdered members of the Gardaí.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Point to me one single State celebration of our 'independence'.

I always wondered about that. We have chosen instead the suicidal failure of the Easter Rising. I guess a terrorist war is less romantic (except for Brian Stanley et al). Or maybe given the civil war aftermath it was difficult to chose which terrorist act to glorify.
But you know what I meant. The State and in general its citizenry are very grateful for the achievement of independence. The RIC were a major impediment to that achievement. So to me it seems contrived for the State to commemorate them In a sort of balancing act.
I see you resort to your usual trick of invoking those for whom it obviously is not a contrivance - the relatives of said RIC men. A follow through from earlier implications that I am a callous old Duke uncaring of the feelings of others. It is getting tiresome.

 

[WolfeTone]

This country didn't exist back then.

Ah, please!! Seriously? Should we commemorate the lives of those in 1916? The famine?
When you think about it, going by your logic, these were all events that occurred in a different country.

It was organised at the request of members of the Gardaí.

Which is why it's abandonment in this State appears to be quite sinister in my opinion.
I'm hoping the Duke will provide an explanation, but I'm still waiting.

We have chosen instead the suicidal failure of the Easter Rising

I always wondered about that.

So we don't actually celebrate our independence. Somewhat an oddity?

No need to wonder Duke. I will explain.
Up until 1998 this State laid claim under its Constitution to the territory of the whole island. In effect, the State deemed the presence of British military and political institutions as a foreign occupation.
Under the Constitution of this State there was no full independence to celebrate.

But you know what I meant.

I know what you meant. Its your inability to extend some understanding of what others mean, in particular those who you disagree with, that I think is a fault of yours.
In fairness, you are not alone.

A follow through from earlier implications that I am a callous old Duke uncaring of the sufferings of others

I don't think you are callous or uncaring, I just think you are the same side of the coin of those who you criticise as being callous and uncaring. The Brian Stanleys of the world, you are in the same camp.
There can be no more obvious example of your continued reference to Kingsmill massacre (a callous and sinister act) and your by-passing of the slaughter of six innocent Catholics in days leading up to Kingsmill. If I'm not mistaken, you brushed it off referring to the murderers as a "few bad apples".

You and Brian Stanley, kindred spirits.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

No need to wonder Duke. I will explain.
Up until 1998 this State laid claim under its Constitution to the territory of the whole island. In effect, the State deemed the presence of British military and political institutions as a foreign occupation.
Under the Constitution of this State there was no full independence to celebrate.

Yes that explains that one. Now that we have a "final settlement" is it not time that we had our 4th July?
Getting back to the original source of this rabbit hole. I do not think it is hypocrisy at all on my part to be totally opposed to SF getting their hands on government in this country (even if democratically) and yet to encourage their participation in power sharing up there, when we consider the alternative that was visited on us over 30 years. I see you will not retract the "hypocrisy" allegation so maybe time to close this rabbit hole.

 

[Purple]

Ah, please!! Seriously? Should we commemorate the lives of those in 1916? The famine?
When you think about it, going by your logic, these were all events that occurred in a different country.

I say this with genuine regard for you and your posts but the deflection when it comes to SF and the IRA is really tiresome.

 

[WolfeTone]

I do not think it is hypocrisy at all on my part to be totally opposed to SF getting their hands on government in this country (even if democratically) and yet to encourage their participation in power sharing up there, when we consider the alternative that was visited on us over 30 years.

And that alternative also resulted in the IRA shooting dead Gardai in this State as well as police officers in the North.
So yes, I do think it is hypocrisy to encourage their participation in government while simultaneously being opposed to their participation in government.
But I've made the point. Whether you or anyone else agrees with it or not doesn't really matter.

 

[WolfeTone]

I say this with genuine regard for you and your posts but the deflection when it comes to SF and the IRA is really tiresome.

I'm not really sure what you are talking about here? I mentioned 1916 and the famine... where does SF and IRA come in to that?

To close off this rabbit hole, the comment was made that a SF rep failing to commemorate the lives of two Gardai murdered by IRA was more sinister than the abandonment of a commemoration of police officers murdered by the IRA. Not least because of public declarations by elected officials openly stating they would not attend the commemoration.

I fail to see how one is more sinister than the other.
But I'm tired of waiting for a reasonable explanation so I will park it there.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And that alternative also resulted in the IRA shooting dead Gardai in this State as well as police officers in the North.
So yes, I do think it is hypocrisy to encourage their participation in government while simultaneously being opposed to their participation in government.
But I've made the point. Whether you or anyone else agrees with it or not doesn't really matter.

Oh you nearly match tecate in stubbornness. I encourage the DUP to participate in power sharing in the North. Totally opposed to them having any say in government here. I encourage the Taliban to behave themselves now that they are in power in Afghanistan but etc. etc. No hypocrisy my dear Wolfie.

To close off this rabbit hole, the comment was made that a SF rep failing to commemorate the lives of two Gardai murdered by IRA was more sinister than the abandonment of a commemoration of police officers murdered by the IRA. Not least because of public declarations by elected officials openly stating they would not attend the commemoration.

That was my comment. There is nothing sinister at all about the latter. Worst case is that they have decided that such a ceremony would not be universally popular and potentially open to demonstrations which would greatly detract from the purpose and in particular be upsetting to the RIC descendants (see I do care).
By contrast the SF act of omission points to a very sinister fact, that potential participants in government in the South are in fact answerable to the IRA Army Council and are only feigning acceptance of our constitution as a tactic. The fact that said SF councillor denies this interpretation only increases its sinistericity in my book.