Austria's Mandatory Vaccines and similar measures

[Paul O Mahoney]

Part of the problem is that Austria is a federation with 9 federations and health services are run by the federations (a bit like Germany). In 7 or 8 of the federations, right wing parties are in control and dropped mask mandates and played down the virus - usual stuff... "it's all over - now get back to normal". The exception is Vienna which kept up standard mitigations and now has the lowest incidence rates.

I think it highlights that basic mitigations like masks will need to be kept for a good while

The ironic thing also is that drug substance for the vaccine is being manufactured there too.

The journalist mentioned the federal system in her assessment of Austria was going through with it's new measures.

 

[pablo123]

Parts of Germany have introduced legislation that unvaccinated employees will not be entitled to any wage/payments during times they are off work due to quarantining as a result of being close contacts.

Rightly so , This is a Pandemic , This is not a passing joke this is for real , Give up your rights for now , People gave up their lives fighting wars so they could have the freedom of choice so make the right one for everyone,s sake .

 

[michaelm]

While this disease is serious, with 90% already vaccinated, it does not warrant mandatory vaccination. Such would be an overreach by the State, an affront to civil liberties, and achieve little or nothing save to set a dangerous precedent. Had we introduced mandatory vaccination during the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 we would have had many more children having to cope with lifelong narcolepsy.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

While this disease is serious, with 90% already vaccinated, it does not warrant mandatory vaccination. Such would be an overreach by the State, an affront to civil liberties, and achieve little or nothing save to set a dangerous precedent. Had we introduced mandatory vaccination during the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 we would have had many more children having to cope with lifelong narcolepsy.

We don't have 90% of the population vaccinated it's closer to 75% which leaves over a million unvaccinated children included, but children can also transmit.

That vaccine was proven safe it was the adjuvant was the problem, it was corrected but it was too late and the amount of people that were affected was a tiny percentage of those who received it.

What about the civil rights/liberties of those who get sick from others ?

Mandatory vaccination is nothing new, plenty of countries have it , we've done it, it might be the solution or at least get ahead of the virus, but the power of reversing this is in our hands.

 

[odyssey06]

While this disease is serious, with 90% already vaccinated, it does not warrant mandatory vaccination. Such would be an overreach by the State, an affront to civil liberties, and achieve little or nothing save to set a dangerous precedent. Had we introduced mandatory vaccination during the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 we would have had many more children having to cope with lifelong narcolepsy.

It's actually not clear with that vaccine if it 'caused' narcolepsy or triggered it, as in, it is probable those children would have at some point developed narcolepsy (in response to a viral infection) in their lives unless very lucky.

 

[michaelm]

The vaccine was fast-tracked, approved by the EMA and left 100+ Irish kids with narcolepsy. Not trivial. Children are not the drivers of transmission or clogging the hospitals. The right to refuse medication/treatment is a civil liberty. You seem to be implying that you support mandatory vaccination for both adults and children. If so, fair enough. I'm totally opposed.

 

[michaelm]

It's actually not clear with that vaccine if it 'caused' narcolepsy or triggered it, as in, it is probable those children would have at some point developed narcolepsy (in response to a viral infection) in their lives unless very lucky.

That's what a government spokesman might say. Sure vaccines never did anyone any harm. The spike in cases was noted in multiple jurisdictions. We have a pipeline of court cases and the State, who indemnified the supplier, are paying out millions without, of course, admission of liability.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

It's actually not clear with that vaccine if it 'caused' narcolepsy or triggered it, as in, it is probable those children would have at some point developed narcolepsy (in response to a viral infection) in their lives unless very lucky.

A study by Stamford University published in 2018 concluded the vaccine was safe the initial adjuvant mixture was the most likely cause of the side effects.

 

[odyssey06]

A study by Stamford University published in 2018 concluded the vaccine was safe the initial adjuvant mixture was the most likely cause of the side effects.

Yes what seems to have happened is that the adjuvant was 'stronger' in the Pandemrix version and triggered a stronger immune response in the upper respiratory system.

One of the triggers of narcolepsy in individuals susceptible is such a response whether from a vaccine or a virus.

So for such people who received the vaccine it tripped the switch... maybe earlier than would have happened but many of them would have developed narcolepsy over the course of their lives.

If someone has a more plausible explanation for how the adjuvant could trigger narcolepsy please share.

 

[michaelm]

I don't think anyone is arguing other than the adjuvant component of Pandemrix triggered narcolepsy in these kids. There's no evidence that they would otherwise have developed narcolepsy. Unfortunately, the State chose to fight those damaged by the vaccine through the courts.

 

[odyssey06]

I don't think anyone is arguing other than the adjuvant component of Pandemrix triggered narcolepsy in these kids. There's no evidence that they would otherwise have developed narcolepsy. Unfortunately, the State chose to fight those damaged by the vaccine through the courts.

There was an increase in narcolepsy in areas where Pandemrix was used, that is not being questioned.

I disagree that it's a strong argument against mandatory vaccines, given the complexities below.
Vaccines have side effects, but not pushing vaccines has consequences too.
(I haven't advocated for mandatory vaccines but I agree with the measures around access to hospitality etc)

People who never got the vaccine, or got a different one, can develop narcolepsy.
Being infected with flu or a minor infection can cause narcolepsy:
The cause of narcolepsy is often an infection that “tricks” the immune system into destroying the cells that produce hypocretin by mistaking those cells for attacking bacteria or viruses. The infection might be nothing more than a sore throat or flu-like infection.

So yes there is evidence they could otherwise have developed narcolepsy... if they have the genetic susceptibility.

A nuclear protein found in both H1N1 influenza virus and some H1N1 vaccines blocks a receptor for hypocretin, a neuropeptide associated with wakefulness. But it only affects people with a specific genetic make-up (human leukocyte antigen [HLA] haplotype) that is rare in Canada, but more common in the northern European countries... H1N1 infection, as well as vaccination, can cause narcolepsy.

H1N1 vaccine and narcolepsy link discovered

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[michaelm]

Science lesson notwithstanding, the other swine flu vaccine (Celvapan) did not trigger narcolepsy. Plenty of other vaccines contain adjuvants but have not caused a spike in narcolepsy. In any event, I mentioned it as an example of what can happen with a rushed vaccine. One shouldn't need to make an argument against forced vaccination in a liberal democracy, it should be a given (but clearly not taken for granted).

By all means push vaccines, and at this stage target messaging towards our migrant population who make up half the unvaccinated in ICU but only 1/6th of the population, but we should not go down the road of forced vaccination. If we do it will backfire.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

By all means push vaccines, and at this stage target messaging towards our migrant population who make up half the unvaccinated in ICU but only 1/6th of the population, but we should not go down the road of forced vaccination. If we do it will backfire.

Wow.....looks like it's the migrant workers fault now.

 

[odyssey06]

Wow.....looks like it's the migrant workers fault now.

I think there could be an issue there. Lot of vaccine scepticism in places like Romania, Poland, Brazil, Baltc states and have migrant worker populations here.

Legacy of suspicion to Soviet dominated / dictatorial governments.

It may need a culturally calibrated response / some firm measures that cant be ignored.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

I think there could be an issue there. Lot of vaccine scepticism in places like Romania, Poland, Brazil, Baltc states and have migrant worker populations here.

Legacy of suspicion to Soviet dominated / dictatorial governments.

It may need a culturally calibrated response / some firm measures that cant be ignored.

I know all that but they represent 13% of the population and are naturally sceptical and I know a few, but if we are now going to start singling out sub sections of the non Irish born population and saying they are the cause?

A few weeks ago this was highlighted by the HSE and they were, along with other organisations, attempting to get information in native languages to help persuade migrants of the positive side of getting vaccinated, but this isn't solely an immigrant issue as the majority of the people who are in the ICU/ hospitals are Irish.

The Irish times ran a story on this at the end of October, Google has made links impossible for me.

 

[odyssey06]

I know all that but they represent 13% of the population and are naturally sceptical and I know a few, but if we are now going to start singling out sub sections of the non Irish born population and saying they are the cause?

A few weeks ago this was highlighted by the HSE and they were, along with other organisations, attempting to get information in native languages to help persuade migrants of the positive side of getting vaccinated, but this isn't solely an immigrant issue as the majority of the people who are in the ICU/ hospitals are Irish.

The Irish times ran a story on this at the end of October, Google has made links impossible for me.

I didnt mean to suggest it is solely that cohort - rather that the unvaccinated are not a homogenous group.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

I didnt mean to suggest it is solely that cohort - rather that the unvaccinated are not a homogenous group.

I know you didn't and understand what you're saying, but its been highlighted and steps are being put in place to try and get more migrants vaccinated.

 

[michaelm]

Wow.....looks like it's the migrant workers fault now.

That seems a tad disingenuous, if not cynical.

 

[Paul O Mahoney]

That seems a tad disingenuous, if not cynical.

You typed it and it was read as typed, as I said the problem has been highlighted by the HSE and a strategy has been put in place.
I certainly don't think we should be naming and pointing to minorities in an effort to pursue a narrative.

 

[michaelm]

I realise I've trip-trapped into your forum but your retort may say more about you than me. Poor, but interesting.