Are Gardai/Customs/Revenue entitled to impound a rented UK registered vehicle.

Re: Impounding Car

deadwood said:
You can't register a car you don't own, right enough, but they have the car!

If you're insured here too, that might reinforce their case.

Nice try, but I think they have you.
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When you say thay they "have me" are you implying that I am doing something illegal? Can you be more specific? I did not think what I was doing was illegal.
 
Re: Impounding Car

noelc, enough of the fake innocence, please!

From the Revenue Web site: "All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners".

I would have thought that was clear enough.

For full details, see: [broken link removed]

This information is freely available.
 
Re: Impounding Car

I presume the rental company also has insurance on this vehicle ?
 
Re: Impounding Car

bond-007 said:
It is done all the time. Nothing unusual about it.
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Isn't this a breach of the principle of [broken link removed]? How can you insure something that you down own? If the car is burnt out, how does make sense that the insurer pays the renter and not the owner?
 
Re: Impounding Car

Hire purchase agreements are good example of a non owner insuring a car. Also if you ever take a loaner car from a garage they will insist you transfer your insurance on to a car that you do not own. Most car rental firms in Ireland are the same, they insist you transfer your insurance onto their car.
 
Re: Impounding Car

ang1170 said:
noelc, enough of the fake innocence, please!

From the Revenue Web site: "All motor vehicles in the State, other than those brought in temporarily by visitors, must be registered with the Revenue Commissioners".

This information is freely available.
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Apologies for faking innocence; you are right. Given what you have quoted from the revenue site it is clear that I am in breach of this law.

What are my options?
 
Re: Impounding Car

Yes, the car can be seized for non payment of VRT. If a car is brought to Ireland to be used by an Irish resident, then it must be registered in Ireland full stop. Who owns it etc. is no concern of the Gardai/Revenue. If a UK rental company wants to rent cars to Irish residents, then they have an obligation to adhere to Irish law and register and insure these cars in Ireland - same as any other rental company renting cars in Ireland.

You essentially have 2 options:

1. Get the rental company to register and insure the car in Ireland (which I'm sure they will be relunctant to do).

2. Return it to the rental company and hire a car that is registered in Ireland from an Irish based company.
 
Re: Impounding Car

bond-007 said:
Hire purchase agreements are good example of a non owner insuring a car. Also if you ever take a loaner car from a garage they will insist you transfer your insurance on to a car that you do not own. Most car rental firms in Ireland are the same, they insist you transfer your insurance onto their car.
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Thanks for the clarification. I can see the sense in this for the short-term loan options. In a HP situation, does the driver take out 3rd party insurance and the owner takes out fire/theft?

The OP is lucky that Revenue gave him 7 days grace. Most car rental companies don't allow cross-border movements. Was this a bona fides rental from a rental company, or a little side deal between friends?
 
Re: Impounding Car

bond-007 said:
I think option 2 is the only viable one for you.
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Does anyone legal have a view on the following European Court of Justice ruling?

In Case C-451/99​
Cura Anlagen, the European Court of Justice ruled that a motor vehicle
registration tax can be levied on lease vehicles brought in from another Member State, but
that the Member State in which the vehicle is being used must take into account how long the vehicle will be used within its borders and must allow the user a reasonable amount of time to take care of the necessary paperwork.
The Commission is verifying the practical arrangements adopted by the Member States to​

take these rulings on board.
 
Re: Impounding Car

In Case C-451/99
Cura Anlagen, the European Court of Justice ruled that a motor vehicle
registration tax can be levied on lease vehicles brought in from another Member State, but
that the Member State in which the vehicle is being used must take into account how long the vehicle will be used within its borders and must allow the user a reasonable amount of time to take care of the necessary paperwork.
The Commission is verifying the practical arrangements adopted by the Member States to​

take these rulings on board.
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It appears that this ruling was followed - the OP was given 7 days to sort it out.

The part you highlighted applies to e.g. tourists, who may rent a car for 2-3 weeks and drive around another EU country rather than long term users of rented cars.
 
Re: Impounding Car

I have been examining this ruling.

The European Court of Justice has ruled that in the case of a lease of a vehicle by a company in one member state to a company/consumer in another member state that this consitutes a service and as such is given certain protections.

The court has rules that what is at issue here is a service (the user of the asset - the car) and not the asset itelf (the car).

The court has further rules that the government of the state in which the car is being used do have a right to require that the car is registered in that state. However, the VRT charge to the consumer to register the car has to take into account the length of the lease of the vehicle.

For example, if the state decides that the VRT payable is €1000 over the normal life of the vehicle the state can only impose a pro-rata proportion of this charge to allow the vehicle to be registered for the length of the lease.

Simply put; if I lease a vehicle fron the UK for 1 year the following is how the Irish Government is supposed to manage the supply of this service.

1. Can ask me to register the vehicle for use in Ireland
2. I can demonstrate that the vehicle is on a defined length lease of, say 12 months
3. VRO says normal VRT for the car is €1000
4. Court of Justice has ruled that this normal VRT rate assumes a life of 10 years
5. VRT payable by me to have the car registered for use on Irish roads for the 12 month contract would be €100 - 1/10th of the VRT
6. Irish government must register the car if they want to collect this VRT and allow me to see out the lease of the vehicle.

Any comments?
 
Re: Impounding Car

csirl said:
It appears that this ruling was followed - the OP was given 7 days to sort it out.

The part you highlighted applies to e.g. tourists, who may rent a car for 2-3 weeks and drive around another EU country rather than long term users of rented cars.
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I do not think that the case/ruling referred to tourists renting cars; futher research on this shows:

2. Registration tax on leased cars
Vehicles leased and registered in other Member States by persons resident in Finland may be used only for seven days in Finland, after which the car must be registered in Finland and the whole amount of the tax is due.

Finnish legislation is not in conformity with Article 49 of the EC Treaty as it constitutes an obstacle to the freedom to provide services: it impedes leasing companies established in other Member States from offering their services to persons resident in Finland.

In its judgment of 21 Mars 2002 in case C-451/99 (Cura Anlagen), the Court of Justice took the view that an obligation to register a vehicle in the Member State of residence is not in breach, as such, of the provisions on the freedom to provide services.

However, the vehicle user must be granted a period of time within which to register the vehicle in the Member State of residence, which should be not so short as to be considered an unjustified obstacle to that freedom (in the case in question, a period of three days was considered contrary to the freedom rules enshrined in the EC Treaty).

<<This is the important part....>>

The Court also ruled that, for the purposes of complying with the provisions of the Treaty, registration tax on a leased vehicle in the Member State of residence must be proportionate to the period during which the vehicle will be registered and used in that Member State of residence

<<Extract from web-site [broken link removed] who are the umbrella body of which he Irish AA is a member>>
 
Re: Impounding Car

It's pretty clear to most people who look at it that the whole VRT regime is against both the spirit and letter of much EU law.

Unless and until someone takes a case though, you haven't a leg to stand on: quoting any EU directive or legislation is a waste of time. Customs, the Revenue and the Gardai are there to implement and enforce Irish law, and you are clealy in breach of that.

I'm totally on your side on this: the tax is an abomination, but as I say unless and until someone challenges it, we're stuck with it...
 
Reading the initial posts in the thread I was about to post that this was cross-border provision of a service, and the rental company could have a case under EU law. But I don't think this helps in the immediate situation - Irish law is quite clear.
 
noelc said:
I considered posting this message in the Car section of the site. However, I am more interested in the legal rights that the state has in this regard.
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All car related issues performance, environmental, financial and legal are dealt with in the cars section. If we dont do it this way then the AAL section would become hugh and unweildy.

Thanks
aj
 
MugsGame said:
Reading the initial posts in the thread I was about to pot that this was cross-border provision of a service, and the rental company could have a case under EU law. But I don't think this helps in the immediate situation - Irish law is quite clear.
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Thanks for the comments. No it does not help in the immediate situation.

However, I do believe that as a citizen of the EU I should have the right to use the service of a company of another member state without fear of financial loss, fine and/or conviction.

This is another example of the Irish a-la-carte attitude to Europe - ue it when it's suits us and ignore it when we like.
 
noelc said:
...

This is another example of the Irish a-la-carte attitude to Europe - ue it when it's suits us and ignore it when we like.
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A bit like our fellow "Europeans" - Brits, Germans, Finns, French, Spaniards, etc.
 
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