AIB AIB, tracker rate in contract, fixed - not getting my tracker back.

Bradym

Registered User
Messages
16
Hi I took out a mortgage with aib Oct 2006 fixed for 3 yrs Apr 3.994%
Under my terms and conditions it states that once my fixed rate was up I had the choice of a b or c c being conversion to a tracker interest rate mortgage loan
Which they never offered me once my 3 yr fixed rate was up ...am I in line for a refund ???have heard nothing from aib
 

PadKiss

Frequent Poster
Messages
215
AIB Tracker Campaign Update January 2017
The upcoming Public meeting scheduled for:19th January 2017 @ The Clayton Hotel will be now rescheduled to a date in February TBA

Due to ongoing issues with Allied Irish Bank, I have decided to postpone the Public meeting scheduled for next Thursday 19th January 2017 until a later date. At present there are still many questions outstanding in relation to this lender not least their stance on some accounts relating to the Tracker issue, which are not yet restored to the correct margin.
In the meantime, anyone who is currently in Redress can contact my office directly in relation to your own account, if any matter is urgent. I am continually challenging these matters directly with the Central Bank and assure all of you that the investigation is ongoing and is not complete.


It is the Central Bank who will decide when their investigation is complete and not AIB/EBS. The length of time this matter is taking is a further indictment against AIB and how the behaviour of this lender is affecting each customer. The fact that the offending and overcharging is ongoing is frankly a disgrace, I am challenging all parties to speed up and end this overcharging.

For those in Redress please be advised lodging your cheque will not affect your right to Appeal your case in anyway.

I will be in contact in the coming weeks with a rescheduled date for the Public meeting.

My apologies for any inconvenience, rescheduling the Public meeting will cause.
Padraic Kissane
 

ella

Registered User
Messages
22
Sorry grandaugher got hold of the phone and sent the last post.
 
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Neverever

Frequent Poster
Messages
72
In my Final Response letter from AIB Home Mortgages after I raised the issue, they did state the following..
..."While we have made a decision in relation to your complaint, we want to let you know that separate to this, we are looking at the accounts of customers under an industry wide Tracker Mortgage Review, which the Central Bank of Ireland has asked all banks to do. This review is ongoing and should new information emerge affects your account, we will contact you. In any event, we will write to you again when the Tracker Mortgage Review is complete to confirm our position".

Notwithstanding the disappointing response I got from AIB Home Mortgages, I agree with mister32 above in that the review is still ongoing and all accounts have not been audited by AIB & KPMG (independant party to AIB review process) therefore in light of the above statement, I feel that AIB is leaving the door open to include our cases for redress over the next 6 months....fingers crossed.

I don't think it's worthwhile contacting the FSO at this stage until the industry wide review has been completed.
Hi Eamon Sweeney, I was told something similar over the phone by AIB. Firstly that if I had not got a letter by now I was never going to get a letter and to go away, the part of the review to indetify impacted customers was over. There would be no new customers identified in 2017. This was on call Jan 06th 2017.

I continued to press on this over the last 3 weeks and eventually was told - Basically my account has been reviewed as part of the Central Bank exam and is not deemed impacted, however all accounts are still being reviewed. She would not tell me tho if my account would be reviewed again. She said new accounts are being identified and new scenarios that are deemed impacted are being identified, so just because you are deemed not impacted now does not mean you will not be deemed impacted in the future.

Any other question I asked about my account was answered with either "No Comment" or "AIB can neither confirm nor deny that". She advised as per Central Bank instructions they cannot discuss individual cases with people.

Speaking offline to someone involved it appears lenders review accounts and put forward to Central Bank and the Central Bank deem them impacted or not. The banks don't have authority to deem a scenario impacted, so even if the bank thinks my account has been impacted they cannot take redress action. I am not sure who is hiding behind who here, the CB behind the lenders or the lenders behind the CB.

Either way, it is worrying.

The scope of scenarios is being limited. As someone on this thread say, the T&C's on the letters were generic and not tailored. They just printed off, so the number of possible impacted customer is huge. Looks like the scope of this exam is being narrowed to provide the Mimimum Dose Effect. By that I mean, a figure of impacted accounts that is large enough to show the issue was fully reviewed to appease the general public but keep expense to the banks as low as possible.

Based on generic T&C's just being reemed off as mortgages were issued the estimate of 15000 impacted accounts is very low. My own estimates - if AIB included scenarios like mine they would be up at that figure of 15k on their own. When we have a government looking to sell part to all of AIB they do really want to support an Exam that could potentially cost that bank over a €1 billion. Do you think they would get a good price for their shares with this hanging over them?

With the sums of money involved "the national interest" of not destabilising the bank will take priority over the individual interest.

If this was open and transparent the Central Bank would publish exactly what scenarios they deem are in scope and which are not. That way people could review themselves, challenge the banks and actually put forward an argument based on fact.

Also, i don't think KPMG will audit all files. I believe they are there to solely audit the ones that have been deemed impacted, and will audit the figures that AIB are stating to the impacted accounts.
 
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mister32

Guest
That's very interesting

The banks submit documents to central bank and i central bank decides?

Makes sense cos banks would never voluntarily give anyone back
 

Neverever

Frequent Poster
Messages
72
Hi Mister32, thats what I thought "banks would never voluntarily give anyone back" was the sole issue, but it is also the Central Bank not allowing them to. The Central Bank will not allow any individual lender agree to redress without approval from them in fear that it will set a precedent and thus let the flood cases open.

My scenario for instance, if AIB agreed I was effected this would open up to a huge number of people. Just looking at the number mortgages AIB issued during the period they had the generic t&c's as shown on my letter of offer it is huge. If only 1 in 10 borrowers during this time made the same decision I did then you are looking at a scary number for the bank.
I
If they agreed to me, then the others are then in line to be redressed. This must be why the Central bank is controlling this to ensure no bank goes off the prescribed line.


On a related note, I read on one of these treads a tread I can no longer find. if anyone can point me in the right direction or give me the answer be great.

A poster stated a legal term (think was in latin) essentially saying that the issuer of a contractual document should not benefit from any error in the document.
Anyone got any idea what that Legal Term is?
 

Gen360

Frequent Poster
Messages
97
Actually it is well worth looking up "Contra Preferatum" on Wikipedia.
If this alone was applied to the banks they would probably be in a spot of bother.
Part of my scrap with the bank was that the contracts were ambiguous, they didn't seem to think so.
I might get a solicitor to have a look and see if he understands them.
 
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mister32

Guest
So what you're saying neverever is that even though people are entitled to tracker

The central bank is restricting those getting restored in order to save the banks (prudential)

The only hope for some people is if they take legal action

What's more, not only are the banks not quaking in their boots, they're casually waiting for the central bank to tell them what to do next.

Effectively zero responsibility rests with the banks.
 

Neverever

Frequent Poster
Messages
72
Yip, its like when I was a kid watching WWF wrestling. I thought these guys were really wrestling and both were trying to win. That I learned it was scripted, and I assumed it was decided who would win before the even got into the ring. Then I learned the truth. The ref actually controlled it, he was telling the guys what to do and when to do it for the greater good of the WWF. So everyone in the ring were in on the same con, even the ref.

I have spoken to some incredibly brash and ignorant people dealing within the bank. But I have also spoken to some genuinely nice and honest people who know what they are saying is lies. I can hear it in them, they know they are defending the indefensible. These are real people, who need a job, real people who can see the distress this is causing. Real people whom giving the choice would agree with what is essentially Yes or No argument and say you are entitled to redress - however they don't have the authority to do it.

We need to keep a push on from Oireacthas level, supporting opposition, as it appears it is only the opposition that are supporting us.

On that.
Did you see Minister Noonan last night during the private members motion. He did not even disguise the fact he was not interested. All he did was read out press releases taken from the Central Bank website. I recited it word for word with him. Sadly I knew them word for word.

Only on the Friday before I recited the exact same press releases to AIB to remind them of their obligations. I wrote the press releases down word for word from the CB website, then I wrote them out again to assist so I would be more familiar with the wording.
I then rang AIB and read it out to the person on the other end, word for word so it was clear we both knew what AIB's obligations were and then asked them to address my specific questions.

Didn't have quiet the impact I had hoped for bit I did become very familiar with the CB press release wording...
 
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mister32

Guest
Brilliant!

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

But I think you're spot on.
 

Neverever

Frequent Poster
Messages
72
Yea another one that would be funny, if not so serious. When ring the "dedicated" tracker redress number which AIB are obliged to setup as part of of the the CB exam. It rings straight through to general customer service / brach support. I would always say yo do know I rang the dedicated tracker number? Mostly they would not acknowledge this. Tho one day last week when I stated this the man on the other end stopped and stuttered and said " O yea, yea - Im part of that to"

He was solely dedicated to different roles!!!
 

Neverever

Frequent Poster
Messages
72
Also guys, those who AIB have offered trackers back to at a prevailing rate - and where ther margin is huge. Margin offered to me is 4.91% , I know most are being offered at around 3.25%.

if you look at your letter of offer, Part 4 section 3.6.3 on my offer this clearly states the only circumstance AIB are allowed to adjust the margin.

On mine it states "The Bank may adjust the Tracker Margin upwards if the Valuation Report values the property at less than the Property Price/Estimate shown on the particulars of Offer of Mortgage Loan. The Bank will notify the customer in writing of the new tracker Margin" There is no other condition that allows AIB to adjust the margin.

No condition anywhere that states tracker margin is subject to market conditions being suitable to AIB or anything like that. That is the story the are pedaling when offering the large margins, they can't afford the small margin.
Well they should not have sold at small margins and don't let then give you the excuse no one could have known what would happen - unless they allow it work the other way.

AIB throwing people out of their homes and putting pressure on them to repay mortgages and blaming the homeowners for drawing down unsuitable mortgages - are AIB suggesting AIB should not be held responsible for not knowing what would happen but the home owners should have known what was going to happen and must pony up?
 
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mister32

Guest
What if, just imagine, in 2008 it was actually the central bank that instructed banks to not put customers back on tracker! To help with balance sheets and ecb monitoring.

Then we would be staring at the appalling vista of the entire tracker scandal being a creation of the central bank.

When I say instructed, it may have been quite subtle but enough to allow banks to think they would get away with it.

Which they nearly did until ptsb backed down on the steps of the supreme court.
 

Neverever

Frequent Poster
Messages
72
Don't know if central bank would have instructed, but I would not be surprised if they were aware.

I was offered a tracker of 4.91% margin in 2015 in a strangely wordered later.

When I rang AIB about this, and asked the usual questions the man on the other end just stopped me and said.

We have agreed the wording of this letter with the Central Bank, this has been approved by the Central Bank.

Clear cut at this point the CB was liasing with the bank on how to word a letter that was needed to restore a contractual right without back dating right to when should be restored from and at a level that benefited the bank and was in opposition to the agreement set out in letter of offer.
Further more this approval would suggest the process of not reinstating contracted rate was approved also.

The CB technically supporting the banks on the issue at this point. I feel their support for the banks has remained.
 
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mister32

Guest
Was that before the review?


Review started around October 2015
 

adw2015

Registered User
Messages
1
Hi All,

I am s first time poster but have been reading through these posts when it comes to my own case.

Like the majority of you I have received the letter stating that the Bank discontinued providing tracker mortgages in October 2008 and that this was notified to customers via press relief on the 10 Oct 2008, notices were displayed in branches nationwide, on the banks website and in the media in general etc etc.

My question is this was this a sufficient way to communicate to customers.

In part 4 of the letter of offer clause 5.3 notice of variation it says, " save for any period of a fixed interest rate loan, the bank shall give notice to the customer of any variation in the interest rate applicable to the mortgage loan, either by specific notice in writing served on the customer in accordance with the lenders mortgage or generally by newspaper advertisement published in at least one national daily newspaper. Such notice or advertisement shall state the varied interest rate and the date from which the interest rate will apply".

To my mind this covers increases and decreases on interest rates only.

In clause 21 notices it states the following " Any notice under this agreement will be effective if sent by prepaid ordinary post to the customer in an envelope addressed to the customer at the property address or to any altered address that may be advised in writing and acknowledged by the bank. A communication so addressed shall be deemed to be duly served on and received by the customer on the second working day not being a Saturday after the day of posting".

To my mind this covers any contractual change in the mortgage terms an conditions and therefore did the bank breach the terms and conditions of the legal contractual agreement between the customer and the bank by the removal of the right to access a Tracker mortgage when coming if a period of fixed interest rates.

Any comments or feedback would be welcome.
 
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