A
Asimov
Guest
Surprised this major news story hasn't been discussed here yet.
What do you think?
Should Willy Walsh be allowed to buy Aer Lingus?
What do you think?
Should Willy Walsh be allowed to buy Aer Lingus?
T
Tharg
Guest
Bloody cheek
Don't get me started. Let Willy Walsh benefit from the labours of his workers ? No way. I would rather strike first.
Don't get me started. Let Willy Walsh benefit from the labours of his workers ? No way. I would rather strike first.
A
aerlinguspengiun
Guest
LOOK UP ITS A TROLL
Why am I suspicious about these posts? Tharg was pretty fast of the mark...haven't seen him for a while then he's in five minutes after the first Aer Lingus post ...are you talking to yourself again mate?
Why am I suspicious about these posts? Tharg was pretty fast of the mark...haven't seen him for a while then he's in five minutes after the first Aer Lingus post ...are you talking to yourself again mate?
T
Tharg
Guest
WW
I don't know who that was! I'm Tharg!
Give it to Willy for free...we all know its a white elephant.
I don't know who that was! I'm Tharg!
Give it to Willy for free...we all know its a white elephant.
R
rainyday
Guest
I'm Tharg & so is my wife.
The timescale should be dictated by the seller, not by the buyer. But what's the rush? I've heard interesting noises from the unions that further investment in Aer Lingus on a commercial basis generating a commercial return is not prohibited by EU law. Why the big rush to divest ourself of this profit-making semi-state?
The timescale should be dictated by the seller, not by the buyer. But what's the rush? I've heard interesting noises from the unions that further investment in Aer Lingus on a commercial basis generating a commercial return is not prohibited by EU law. Why the big rush to divest ourself of this profit-making semi-state?
B
Billo
Guest
"Why the big rush to divest ourself of this profit-making semi-state? "
Because as most people know, the airline business goes in cycles. We had enough criticism of AL especially here on AAM, in the not so distant past.
Now is the opportune time to sell(to someone).
Rgds
Billo
Because as most people know, the airline business goes in cycles. We had enough criticism of AL especially here on AAM, in the not so distant past.
Now is the opportune time to sell(to someone).
Rgds
Billo
A
Asimov
Guest
ALT
Rainyday, if I did a search back 12-18 months would I find any comments from you saying 'sell the bugger off/close it down...waste of money...not needed...unions...blah blah blah...' or were you always in favour of keeping it going and in State hands? Just curious. You wouldn't be the only one round here who has changed their tune if that were the case!
Billo is right. The airline business is cyclical. It follows clear 10 year periods. It is on the upswing now, but as sure as eggs are eggs, in 2006/7 it will have peaked and be on the way down again to another bomb out in 2012.
The company needs investment, and whether it is allowed or not by the EU is of no consequence...the investment required is too high, and the taxpayers money needs to be spent on more important services...like health and infrastructure (upgrades to the phone system alone will cost millions thanks to the short sighted sell-off of Eircom, but thats history).
Its great to see a reasoned debate starting about this though because up to now its just been a lot of ignorant and ill informed anti Aer Lingus rhetoric. Suddenly, now that its really going, people are back pedalling.
Too late. It has to happen. Now its just a question of who gets it...and just one thing is certain..it won't be Willy Walsh!
Rainyday, if I did a search back 12-18 months would I find any comments from you saying 'sell the bugger off/close it down...waste of money...not needed...unions...blah blah blah...' or were you always in favour of keeping it going and in State hands? Just curious. You wouldn't be the only one round here who has changed their tune if that were the case!
Billo is right. The airline business is cyclical. It follows clear 10 year periods. It is on the upswing now, but as sure as eggs are eggs, in 2006/7 it will have peaked and be on the way down again to another bomb out in 2012.
The company needs investment, and whether it is allowed or not by the EU is of no consequence...the investment required is too high, and the taxpayers money needs to be spent on more important services...like health and infrastructure (upgrades to the phone system alone will cost millions thanks to the short sighted sell-off of Eircom, but thats history).
Its great to see a reasoned debate starting about this though because up to now its just been a lot of ignorant and ill informed anti Aer Lingus rhetoric. Suddenly, now that its really going, people are back pedalling.
Too late. It has to happen. Now its just a question of who gets it...and just one thing is certain..it won't be Willy Walsh!
T
Tharg
Guest
ALT
Walsh should have been fired the minute he came out with that absurd MBO scam.
How can a PUBLIC EMPLOYEE be allowed to continue in his post when there is now a clear conflict of interest?
Willy and his mates cannot be both poacher AND game-keeper. They are out to make a fast buck off the backs of the tax payers and staff.
Bloody nerve!
Walsh should have been fired the minute he came out with that absurd MBO scam.
How can a PUBLIC EMPLOYEE be allowed to continue in his post when there is now a clear conflict of interest?
Willy and his mates cannot be both poacher AND game-keeper. They are out to make a fast buck off the backs of the tax payers and staff.
Bloody nerve!
U
Undertheflightpath
Guest
Aviation
Unless there is a rapid change in airplane engine technology aviation is a sunset business
In total ( long term ) the aviation sector does not make money and does a lot of damage to the world at large
Sell ALT to the first fool to make an offer & let the tax payer cut his losses
Unless there is a rapid change in airplane engine technology aviation is a sunset business
In total ( long term ) the aviation sector does not make money and does a lot of damage to the world at large
Sell ALT to the first fool to make an offer & let the tax payer cut his losses
J
JJ
Guest
Sell AL now !
According to an article from Moore McDowell in the Indo earlier in the week, only three countries in the world have Government owned airlines: Ireland, North Korea, and cuba.. What nice bedfellows we have !
I agree with the posters above who say that we should take what's on the table, and sell off this headache to some private investor. I can't imagine that the private sector would put up with the belligerent behaviour from the AL union trogs that Seamus Brennan, Mary O'Rourke, and et al acquiesced to for years.
According to an article from Moore McDowell in the Indo earlier in the week, only three countries in the world have Government owned airlines: Ireland, North Korea, and cuba.. What nice bedfellows we have !
I agree with the posters above who say that we should take what's on the table, and sell off this headache to some private investor. I can't imagine that the private sector would put up with the belligerent behaviour from the AL union trogs that Seamus Brennan, Mary O'Rourke, and et al acquiesced to for years.
R
rainyday
Guest
Re: Sell AL now !
Hi Asimov - In all honesty, I can't remember expressing any particular views on this topic in the past. I can't put my hand on heart & guarantee that I did or didn't say anything in particular on this topic. Note that my arguement is not tied to any firm point of principle - it's a practical, financial one.
I still don't accept all the arguements about divesting now. Buyers will only buy the damned thing if they are pretty sure that they can make a profit, i.e. get more money out of it than they put in. So future investments will only be made if they are pretty sure they will get a payoff. So why not keep ALT and the future profits for the state to provide ongoing funding for hospitals & schools instead of handing over these future earnings to Willy W or the VC's?
Hi Asimov - In all honesty, I can't remember expressing any particular views on this topic in the past. I can't put my hand on heart & guarantee that I did or didn't say anything in particular on this topic. Note that my arguement is not tied to any firm point of principle - it's a practical, financial one.
I still don't accept all the arguements about divesting now. Buyers will only buy the damned thing if they are pretty sure that they can make a profit, i.e. get more money out of it than they put in. So future investments will only be made if they are pretty sure they will get a payoff. So why not keep ALT and the future profits for the state to provide ongoing funding for hospitals & schools instead of handing over these future earnings to Willy W or the VC's?
A
Asimov
Guest
ALT
Undertheflightpath: "...aviation is a sunset business".
So what is your solution for future intercontinental travel? Perhaps we'll all learn to be long distance swimmers.
JJ, You don't seriously listen to Moore McDowells opinion on anything, do you?! He's a self publicist and is never OFF the radio. His pet hate is airlines (all except Ryanair of course...he positively fawns over MOL).
Anyhow, as usual, Moore has given you bullshit for facts. Being a 'Senior Economist' he probably feels safe in doing so because everyone will just take whatever he says as biblical truth. Either that or you've misquoted the bugger entirely.
Fortunately, we're not all ready to take Moore's (or your) nonsense at face value.
The fact is that there are DOZENS of carriers worldwide that are either wholly or majority owned by their government, including Kuwait, Air France (55%), Malaysia Airlines, Air India, Indian Airlines, and even the airline of the year 2004 Singapore Airlines which is 57% state owned. The runner up...Emirates Airlines...also STATE OWNED. I could list more, but why bother.
So JJ, I'll take that as a SELL, eh?
Rainyday, I won't go digging just in case something embarrassing turns up on you.
While Aer Lingus is profitable now, what will you recommend when the profits fall off again or it goes into the red in the next downturn? And remember, even if the government could make an investment now, a future 'rescue package' scenario is NOT an option.
Walsh says he needs to invest 1 Billion in the companies immediate expansion. Where do you think this money would come from? Tax payers? Do you really think the government would dare suggest it?
There's always Debt as an option, but that just compounds the problems that will arise in the next downturn.
Garrett Fitzgerald wrote a good article in Saturdays Irish Times. He turned out against an outright sale and suggested a PPP. But he didn't quite explain how that would work if the investors weren't getting an equity stake in the company. Just like you, I have my doubts if it would work.
It has to be sold...in full...to the highest bidder, while still keeping restrictions on the disposal of its routes and (in particular) the slots in LHR. This could be catered for under a trasfer of undertakings clause.
The company needs investment and (even more) it needs the State off its back.
Undertheflightpath: "...aviation is a sunset business".
So what is your solution for future intercontinental travel? Perhaps we'll all learn to be long distance swimmers.
JJ, You don't seriously listen to Moore McDowells opinion on anything, do you?! He's a self publicist and is never OFF the radio. His pet hate is airlines (all except Ryanair of course...he positively fawns over MOL).
Anyhow, as usual, Moore has given you bullshit for facts. Being a 'Senior Economist' he probably feels safe in doing so because everyone will just take whatever he says as biblical truth. Either that or you've misquoted the bugger entirely.
Fortunately, we're not all ready to take Moore's (or your) nonsense at face value.
The fact is that there are DOZENS of carriers worldwide that are either wholly or majority owned by their government, including Kuwait, Air France (55%), Malaysia Airlines, Air India, Indian Airlines, and even the airline of the year 2004 Singapore Airlines which is 57% state owned. The runner up...Emirates Airlines...also STATE OWNED. I could list more, but why bother.
So JJ, I'll take that as a SELL, eh?
Rainyday, I won't go digging just in case something embarrassing turns up on you.
While Aer Lingus is profitable now, what will you recommend when the profits fall off again or it goes into the red in the next downturn? And remember, even if the government could make an investment now, a future 'rescue package' scenario is NOT an option.
Walsh says he needs to invest 1 Billion in the companies immediate expansion. Where do you think this money would come from? Tax payers? Do you really think the government would dare suggest it?
There's always Debt as an option, but that just compounds the problems that will arise in the next downturn.
Garrett Fitzgerald wrote a good article in Saturdays Irish Times. He turned out against an outright sale and suggested a PPP. But he didn't quite explain how that would work if the investors weren't getting an equity stake in the company. Just like you, I have my doubts if it would work.
It has to be sold...in full...to the highest bidder, while still keeping restrictions on the disposal of its routes and (in particular) the slots in LHR. This could be catered for under a trasfer of undertakings clause.
The company needs investment and (even more) it needs the State off its back.
U
Undertheflightpath
Guest
ALT & Asimov
Asimov,
Why the selective quote ?
Wasnt the full text
"Unless there is a rapid change in airplane engine technology aviation is a sunset business"
Its just a simple matter of where is the fuel going to come from and the fumes go to.
Some may think that there is nothing I cant arrange but I really dont think that its up to me to provide a solution to this. So I wont be offering my "solution for future intercontinental travel" here
The way you post would seem to suggest that you see this as necessary to life. The world got on very well without it untill well into 1900's and I have no doubt will do again.
Asimov,
Why the selective quote ?
Wasnt the full text
"Unless there is a rapid change in airplane engine technology aviation is a sunset business"
Its just a simple matter of where is the fuel going to come from and the fumes go to.
Some may think that there is nothing I cant arrange but I really dont think that its up to me to provide a solution to this. So I wont be offering my "solution for future intercontinental travel" here
The way you post would seem to suggest that you see this as necessary to life. The world got on very well without it untill well into 1900's and I have no doubt will do again.
A
Asimov
Guest
ALT
This is a discussion about the sale of Aer Lingus, not the future of international aviation.
I think you'll do better if you go here: [broken link removed]
This is a discussion about the sale of Aer Lingus, not the future of international aviation.
I think you'll do better if you go here: [broken link removed]
T
Tapo
Guest
..
Why does every conversation on this board about Aer Lingus have to degenerate into this mud-slinging ?
Why does every conversation on this board about Aer Lingus have to degenerate into this mud-slinging ?
J
jem
Guest
Re: ..
Personally I think it should be sold asap.
One thing though why should unions get part of the company for free?? They are paid their wages and that should be that. I can't see for the life of me why the govt are giving away part of the semi-state companies to the unions.
Because u have insiders like tharg.
Personally I think it should be sold asap.
One thing though why should unions get part of the company for free?? They are paid their wages and that should be that. I can't see for the life of me why the govt are giving away part of the semi-state companies to the unions.
T
Tapo
Guest
..
This of course assumes that Irish civil servants can run an airline as efficiently, as could senior management in BA, BMI, or Ryanair.
If the airline could increase its profitability in the hands of private investors, and this results in a high price for this hornets nest, then the time to sell is now.
This of course assumes that Irish civil servants can run an airline as efficiently, as could senior management in BA, BMI, or Ryanair.
If the airline could increase its profitability in the hands of private investors, and this results in a high price for this hornets nest, then the time to sell is now.
U
undertheflightpath
Guest
ALT future
"This is a discussion about the sale of Aer Lingus, not the future of international aviation."
Call me old fashioned but I find it hard to see how ALTs future is not ( just ever so slightly ) tied to the "future of international aviation".
'suppose they could just limit themselves to routes with the 26 counties & pick up the various EU subs.
"This is a discussion about the sale of Aer Lingus, not the future of international aviation."
Call me old fashioned but I find it hard to see how ALTs future is not ( just ever so slightly ) tied to the "future of international aviation".
'suppose they could just limit themselves to routes with the 26 counties & pick up the various EU subs.
A
Asimov
Guest
ALT
I apologise for any abruptness, but its precisely because these discussions are constantly derailed that I will avoid getting into a debate on airline technology. As far as I'm concerned I have enough faith in human ingenuity to work around technical issues.
As to the unions getting shares for free...the workers have already bought 5% of the company through work practice concessions and profit sharing. They have raised further capital to purchase the other 5%. Only 5% is being given 'for free' and I believe the workers in ALT are entitled to it as stakeholders in the company. 5% shared between the whole workforce is little enough recognition of that stakeholding when you count the fact that a few ALT managers (including Walsh) will receive 10% for free in the event of a sale or flotation!
€50M to share between 3 guys...one of whom has only been in the company a matter of months.
Whos kidding who?
I apologise for any abruptness, but its precisely because these discussions are constantly derailed that I will avoid getting into a debate on airline technology. As far as I'm concerned I have enough faith in human ingenuity to work around technical issues.
As to the unions getting shares for free...the workers have already bought 5% of the company through work practice concessions and profit sharing. They have raised further capital to purchase the other 5%. Only 5% is being given 'for free' and I believe the workers in ALT are entitled to it as stakeholders in the company. 5% shared between the whole workforce is little enough recognition of that stakeholding when you count the fact that a few ALT managers (including Walsh) will receive 10% for free in the event of a sale or flotation!
€50M to share between 3 guys...one of whom has only been in the company a matter of months.
Whos kidding who?
P
Privatesectorworker
Guest
Enough already
Asimov, have you eaten Tharg ?
You seem to have the same wonderfully charming abrupt abusive and bullying style for dealing with anyone who disagrees with you.
Wake up pal, it's the 21st century. You and your semi-state buddies aren't long for this world.
And you know what ? From what you've posted here: good riddance to you !
Asimov, have you eaten Tharg ?
You seem to have the same wonderfully charming abrupt abusive and bullying style for dealing with anyone who disagrees with you.
Wake up pal, it's the 21st century. You and your semi-state buddies aren't long for this world.
And you know what ? From what you've posted here: good riddance to you !