Increase in State pension age to 67 should be delayed by seven years, report to recommend

[joe sod]

Policy has to be aware the lower-skilled workers (particularly with a manual background) just don't have the opportunity to keep going like us knowledge workers do.

This is a very important point that physically demanding jobs are different and not possible to continue after 65, However if government were to differentiate between genuinely physical jobs then there would be a chorus of callers ringing Joe Duffy to say that their jobs were also physically demanding, and that it was sexist as generally men do those jobs, The government always takes the safest route and universality in the welfare system is the path they always take.

 

[Protocol]

Raising the retirement age won't save much, if any money.

The Fiscal Council state that the 1 year change costs 575m per year.

Government ‘will be out €575m’ if it doesn’t alter pension age, says State budget watchdog

Higher taxes or spending cuts loom if the Government delays increasing the State pension age to 67.

www.independent.ie

Long-term Sustainability Report – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council

www.fiscalcouncil.ie

 

[Allpartied]

The Fiscal Council state that the 1 year change costs 575m per year.

Government ‘will be out €575m’ if it doesn’t alter pension age, says State budget watchdog

Higher taxes or spending cuts loom if the Government delays increasing the State pension age to 67.

www.independent.ie

Long-term Sustainability Report – Irish Fiscal Advisory Council

www.fiscalcouncil.ie

But that's just a blank figure, with no regard for unintended consequences.

Loads of people will go for sickness benefit. All those in physically demanding jobs will get signed off by their GP. Or they could just sign on for jobseekers. Employment activation mechanisms are not, currently, used against people over 62.
In addition, you might have a lot of unproductive people clogging up the workforce, who will have to be covered.

By all means give people the option of deferring their state pension ( with an actuarial increase) and continuing in the workforce. But the political price of forcing people to work beyond 65, when the politicians are scuttling off at 60, is just too big. It's an open goal for the opposition.

It's just a poor exercise in budgeting, based on the myth that the state is the same as a business.

 

[Protocol]

By all means give people the option of deferring their state pension ( with an actuarial increase) and continuing in the workforce. But the political price of forcing people to work beyond 65, when the politicians are scuttling off at 60, is just too big. It's an open goal for the opposition.

TDs receive their State Pension at the exact same time as everybody else.


All TDs elected after April 1st, 2004, cannot receive a PS pension or pension lump sum until they reach 65 years of age unless they served in a public service body prior to April 1st, 2004.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

TDs receive their State Pension at the exact same time as everybody else.

Also note TDs pay class K PRSI which doesn't even entitle them to jobseekers benefit when they lose their seat!

 

[time to plan]

This is a very important point that physically demanding jobs are different and not possible to continue after 65, However if government were to differentiate between genuinely physical jobs then there would be a chorus of callers ringing Joe Duffy to say that their jobs were also physically demanding, and that it was sexist as generally men do those jobs, The government always takes the safest route and universality in the welfare system is the path they always take.

Depends what you mean by physically demanding. Most nursing and social care jobs are done by women.

 

[Allpartied]

TDs receive their State Pension at the exact same time as everybody else.


All TDs elected after April 1st, 2004, cannot receive a PS pension or pension lump sum until they reach 65 years of age unless they served in a public service body prior to April 1st, 2004.

But the changes in pension arrangments are not restricted to those who joined the scheme post 2004.


All public sector workers pre 2004, can retire at 60 with the equivalent of the state pension paid immediately. And then some.

The changes are so short sighted and lacking in any vision or cohesiveness.

Just stick the pension age up three years. Full stop.

What about manual workers, what about cognitive decline , what about mobility issues, what about the unproductive, what about employers who don't want unproductive, unenthusiastic workers left on the payroll?

Is there any plan to offer reduced hours , as a legal right? Periods of extended leave, a tapering down from 40 hour weeks to zero in the last 5 years?

It's a blunt tool to save money and it won't save money.

Also note TDs pay class K PRSI which doesn't even entitle them to jobseekers benefit when they lose their seat!

They don't do too badly.

Almost €600,000 for TDs who lost seats or retired

Over €28,000 for ex-FG TD Dara Murphy and in excess of €17,000 to ‘swing gate’ Maria Bailey

www.irishtimes.com

 

[Marsupial]

It's a blunt tool to save money and it won't save money.

They don't do too badly.

Almost €600,000 for TDs who lost seats or retired

Over €28,000 for ex-FG TD Dara Murphy and in excess of €17,000 to ‘swing gate’ Maria Bailey

www.irishtimes.com

So we're discussing an estimated extra charge on the taxpayer of €575m per annum - and growing - and you throw up a link to some trivial report about a one-off charge of €0.6m for retiring politicians. When someone doesn't appear to understand the difference between €575,000,000 and €600,000 they shouldn't really expect to be taken seriously.

 

[Marco 1972]

Has anyone under 50 anything to look forward too, rampant house prices for pokey accommodation or even worse rental accommodation, forced labour till near 70 etc, all that guff about a living longer, were'all living longer minus those 30% that dont reach 69,, with chronic conditions most likely, argument should be why we can retire at 58 given all the technological advances coming.....

 

[Allpartied]

So we're discussing an estimated extra charge on the taxpayer of €575m per annum - and growing - and you throw up a link to some trivial report about a one-off charge of €0.6m for retiring politicians. When someone doesn't appear to understand the difference between €575,000,000 and €600,000 they shouldn't really expect to be taken seriously.

Its politics and it matters. Optics are everything and if you don't get that, then you don't understand very much.

People see fairness as important. So, if the guy making the decision is getting a nice bumper pay off and a nice early pension, it matters.
Of course it's a small amount, but so is Joe Bloggs pension for three years.

Anyway, that was in response to a claim that TD's are just like the rest of us, or even worse off because they don't get jobseekers.

But the whole fiasco is predicated on some mythical reduction in the working age group. That they will be somehow squeezed like lemons to pay for the elderly, lapping it up on cruises. It's nonsense. If the economy is productive, it doesn't matter how many people are working. In fact, a Universal Basic Income is the most likely policy change in future decades, because automation is driving people out of employment. Politicians who grew up with the inflationary 70's ( basically an external energy based shock) are like flat earthers, terrified of falling off an imaginary cliff.

There are lots of ways to balance up the cost, by redistributing the surplus wealth which is all around us.

Corporation Tax is the most obvioius. A wealth tax, increased prsi for employers. Or just borrow it at negative interest rates.

You want to balance up the generational wealth gap, no problem. Put Inheritance Tax to 50%, reduce the allowance to 50k per person and put CGT on the principal private residence.

 

[time to plan]

So we're discussing an estimated extra charge on the taxpayer of €575m per annum - and growing - and you throw up a link to some trivial report about a one-off charge of €0.6m for retiring politicians. When someone doesn't appear to understand the difference between €575,000,000 and €600,000 they shouldn't really expect to be taken seriously.

In that case, the state can send me a cheque for €0.6m, as it apparently doesn't matter.

 

[Peanuts20]

No that is not correct, While people continue to make incorrect statements about SF
SF will continue to rise in the polls, the above statement and others like it are driving more and more people away from the established parties,


Nothing to do with SF,
I suspect you have nothing to do with pensions or know very little about them,

Please see below the official Sinn Fein policy on pensions

Policies

as you can see, it states We will stop the pension age increase to 67 and will return it to 65.

 

[Peanuts20]

But the whole fiasco is predicated on some mythical reduction in the working age group. That they will be somehow squeezed like lemons to pay for the elderly, lapping it up on cruises. It's nonsense. If the economy is productive, it doesn't matter how many people are working. In fact, a Universal Basic Income is the most likely policy change in future decades, because automation is driving people out of employment. Politicians who grew up with the inflationary 70's ( basically an external energy based shock) are like flat earthers, terrified of falling off an imaginary cliff.

There are lots of ways to balance up the cost, by redistributing the surplus wealth which is all around us.

Corporation Tax is the most obvioius. A wealth tax, increased prsi for employers. Or just borrow it at negative interest rates.

You want to balance up the generational wealth gap, no problem. Put Inheritance Tax to 50%, reduce the allowance to 50k per person and put CGT on the principal private residence.

Ok, so lets supposed we increased Corporation Tax to 20% and increase employers PRSI to 15%. That should increase the tax take and make everything ok, shouldn't it?? Ah no I think is the answer to that as

1. multinationals flood out of the country and taking all of their corporation tax with them.
2. well paid staff lose their jobs and end up having to claim social welfare
3. we end up with a reduction in Corporation Tax payments, a reduction in PRSI payments and an increase in social welfare payments

But that's ok, as the new Inheritance Tax will sort all of that out. Of course, you'd have to exclude productive assets such as businesses, farms etc so that the only way those who got left an inheritance could pay for it was by selling that productive asset. You'd also want to exclude things like life insurance payouts (otherwise, what's the point of that?) and to try and find someway to protect the vulnerable dependents so that they don't become a draw on the state.

And that's of course before you try and stop people investing overseas to protect their assets. Overall, it doesn't really inspire a lot of people to grow their wealth and try and improve their families lives in the future, does it?

And of course, CGT on the sale of the principle private residence is going to have zero impact on the ability of people to move up the ladder so to speak.

But of course, none of that matters since our productive economy where is doesn't matter if anyone works or not and where we can borrow money at negative interest rates will just keep on rolling along.

Maybe we should just all invest in Crypto since obviously that bubble is never going to burst, it it?

And yes, I am being a wee bit sarcastic...........

 

[Conan]

Once again
For someone who works in the pension Industry do you know why FF/FG and Labour ran a mile from their decision to raise the pension age,
The Irish Pension Industry Frightens me if you and others can't answer this simple question off the top of your head,
Can you ,
For what it is worth I paid AVC and stayed with a company with a good pension since the 1980s, now retired,

I think your memory is failing you. It was FG/LAB who proposed moving the pension age to 66, 67 and 68. In the last election SF campaigned on keeping it at 65. The current Govt set up the Pensions Commission to review the State Pensions system.

 

[Marsupial]

In that case, the state can send me a cheque for €0.6m, as it apparently doesn't matter.

Looks as though you didn't really understand my observation that when someone doesn't appear to understand the difference between €575,000,000 and €600,000 they shouldn't really expect to be taken seriously.

 

[Allpartied]

Ok, so lets supposed we increased Corporation Tax to 20% and increase employers PRSI to 15%. That should increase the tax take and make everything ok, shouldn't it?? Ah no I think is the answer to that as

1. multinationals flood out of the country and taking all of their corporation tax with them.
2. well paid staff lose their jobs and end up having to claim social welfare
3. we end up with a reduction in Corporation Tax payments, a reduction in PRSI payments and an increase in social welfare payments

But that's ok, as the new Inheritance Tax will sort all of that out. Of course, you'd have to exclude productive assets such as businesses, farms etc so that the only way those who got left an inheritance could pay for it was by selling that productive asset. You'd also want to exclude things like life insurance payouts (otherwise, what's the point of that?) and to try and find someway to protect the vulnerable dependents so that they don't become a draw on the state.

And that's of course before you try and stop people investing overseas to protect their assets. Overall, it doesn't really inspire a lot of people to grow their wealth and try and improve their families lives in the future, does it?

And of course, CGT on the sale of the principle private residence is going to have zero impact on the ability of people to move up the ladder so to speak.

But of course, none of that matters since our productive economy where is doesn't matter if anyone works or not and where we can borrow money at negative interest rates will just keep on rolling along.

Maybe we should just all invest in Crypto since obviously that bubble is never going to burst, it it?

And yes, I am being a wee bit sarcastic...........

Go back 100 years and tell the citizens that they would be entitled to free education, free healthcare, trade unions, minimum wages, annual leave, sick leave, council housing, a five day week, pensions and unemployment benefit.
The bosses would have been telling you it was impossible, that things could never get that good without the bubble bursting.

A pension age that starts at 65, for many people is 45 years of work. Every year they put aside a small amount of excess wealth to pay for it.
And loads of people don't work, because there is nothing for them to do. Loads of people are on payrolls, doing next to nothing.
The economy can afford a short period of active retirement, on a subsistence level pension, without the whole thing collapsing in a heap.

 

[time to plan]

Looks as though you didn't really understand my observation that when someone doesn't appear to understand the difference between €575,000,000 and €600,000 they shouldn't really expect to be taken seriously.

They may appear to YOU not to understand the difference, but that suggests to me that you shouldn't be taken seriously.

You're highly unlikely to find, on a forum about money, someone who doesn't understand the difference between €575,000,000 and €600,000.

 

[time to plan]

Go back 100 years and tell the citizens that they would be entitled to free education, free healthcare, trade unions, minimum wages, annual leave, sick leave, council housing, a five day week, pensions and unemployment benefit.
The bosses would have been telling you it was impossible, that things could never get that good without the bubble bursting.

A pension age that starts at 65, for many people is 45 years of work. Every year they put aside a small amount of excess wealth to pay for it.
And loads of people don't work, because there is nothing for them to do. Loads of people are on payrolls, doing next to nothing.
The economy can afford a short period of active retirement, on a subsistence level pension, without the whole thing collapsing in a heap.

Communist! Next thing we know, you’ll be demanding the abolition of serfdom.

 

[kinnjohn]

Please see below the official Sinn Fein policy on pensions

Policies

as you can see, it states We will stop the pension age increase to 67 and will return it to 65.

I don't want to know what SF policy is I never voted for them in the past and have no plans to vote for them in the future

now do you know why FF/FG and Labour ran a mile from increasing the pension age in the General election of 8/2/2020 it can't be that hard of a question to answer,

 

[noproblem]

Also note TDs pay class K PRSI which doesn't even entitle them to jobseekers benefit when they lose their seat!

I remember reading about Boxer Moran from Athlone (I think) and how difficult he found it after losing his seat. It was very sad to read his story. Personally have no affiliation with the man, but always thought he was hard working and a people's person. I wouldn't be a TD for all the money in China, a tough and thankless job.