Working Time Act: Time for the nanny state to grow up?

[greenfield]

On a point of info, Doctors are not exempt from OWT, there was a phasing period to allow its introduction in hospitals. I am not sure if Ireland is compliant yet but the law does apply to Doctors.

 

[Purple]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

If you don't know about it, and its not in the contract, but the employee takes the job, then afterwards realises that working beyond the agree hours is expected what then?

Leave and get another job.

 

[Purple]

On a point of info, Doctors are not exempt from OWT, there was a phasing period to allow its introduction in hospitals. I am not sure if Ireland is compliant yet but the law does apply to Doctors.

The phasing period is alive and well.

 

[Purple]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

I think the law has to work for the lowest common denominator, and for eveveryone.

So you are in favour of penalising the majority, treating them like children because of the few who are incapable of behaving like adults?

Do you think that no explotation goes on in this day an age? IMO its alive and well.

Some inept and/or stupid people will always be screwed over. The state is not your Mammy, it should not be expected to act like it is.

I find that if you treat people like children they tend to behave like children and if you treat them like adults they tend to behave like adults.
I don't like laws that tell me what I can or cannot do in situations where I act freely and have no negative impact on others. I'm a liberal, I am in favour of personal liberty.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

Some inept and/or stupid people will always be screwed over. The state is not your Mammy, it should not be expected to act like it is.

The funny thing is, that in their capacity as employer of junior doctors, the State (and more particularly the HSE) is by far the most prominent guilty party in overworking its staff. The same State that enacted the Working Time Act for the rest of us.

 

[aircobra19]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

So you are in favour of penalising the majority, treating them like children because of the few who are incapable of behaving like adults?

I never expressed an opinion for or against.

But like you said people are free to move job why not move to a job thats doesn't come under the act? or move to a job that earns more for less hours. Your free to do that.

Some inept and/or stupid people will always be screwed over. The state is not your Mammy, it should not be expected to act like it is.

I find that if you treat people like children they tend to behave like children and if you treat them like adults they tend to behave like adults.
I don't like laws that tell me what I can or cannot do in situations where I act freely and have no negative impact on others. I'm a liberal, I am in favour of personal liberty.

The problem with exploitive behavior especially with regard to working extra or overtime hour is that it may have a negative impact on others. You are ignoring that possibility.

A debate about the [SIZE=-1]responsibility [/SIZE]of the state to its citizens would be far ranging and perhaps beyond the scope of this thread no? As for treating people like adults. Some don't even treat people like people. Hence the act.

 

[Purple]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

I never expressed an opinion for or against.

So what is your opinion?

But like you said people are free to move job why not move to a job thats doesn't come under the act? or move to a job that earns more for less hours. Your free to do that.

That facile. The point is that the government has already restricted the way in which people can choose to work in most of the economy.

The problem with exploitive behavior especially with regard to working extra or overtime hour is that it may have a negative impact on others. You are ignoring that possibility.

So can going on holidays. Should that be banned as well?

A debate about the [SIZE=-1]responsibility [/SIZE]of the state to its citizens would be far ranging and perhaps beyond the scope of this thread no?

But this aspect of how the state interferes in the basic day to day decisions that we are allowed to make is not beyond the scope of this thread.

As for treating people like adults. Some don't even treat people like people. Hence the act.

It's meant to be a free country. If people don't like their job they are free to get another one. There are all sorts of areas that should and are regulated and legislated for to protect people in their place of work. I simply do not think the length of time they choose to spend at work should be one of them.
If a person has a second job but doesn't tell either of their employers is one or both of them liable for breaching the act?

Without working long hours I could not have bought my first home and all that followed would not have been possible.
This act penalises a person wants to work hard and get on in life. That's just not right.

 

[greenfield]

Purple - both the employer and employee are liable if there is a breach on rest breaks etc. However, the employer can defend themselves on the basis that they did not know, or by reasonable enquiry could have known about the second job.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

The problem with exploitive behavior especially with regard to working extra or overtime hour is that it may have a negative impact on others.

If this is correct, it surely applies both to employees and the self-employed. Yet the latter are free to work as long as they want while the former are prohibited from doing so. This doesn't make sense.

 

[Purple]

Purple - both the employer and employee are liable if there is a breach on rest breaks etc. However, the employer can defend themselves on the basis that they did not know, or by reasonable enquiry could have known about the second job.

What business is it of mine if my employee works another job at the weekend? I'm not his/her mother either.

 

[aircobra19]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

So what is your opinion?

You're only seeing one side, because its to your advantage.

That facile. The point is that the government has already restricted the way in which people can choose to work in most of the economy.

Its the same point you made. You can just move jobs if you don't like the hours. As if lifes that simple for everyone.

So can going on holidays. Should that be banned as well?

Holiday leave IS regulated aswell. Overtime isn't banned (AFAIK) its regulated and limited.

But this aspect of how the state interferes in the basic day to day decisions that we are allowed to make is not beyond the scope of this thread.

Debating should the state act as mammy is a different topic than should we have opted in to the EU working act.

It's meant to be a free country. If people don't like their job they are free to get another one. There are all sorts of areas that should and are regulated and legislated for to protect people in their place of work. I simply do not think the length of time they choose to spend at work should be one of them.
If a person has a second job but doesn't tell either of their employers is one or both of them liable for breaching the act?

Without working long hours I could not have bought my first home and all that followed would not have been possible.
This act penalises a person wants to work hard and get on in life. That's just not right.

AFAIK its not like Ireland drafted this. This is an EU directive that we agreed to. Employers and employees could agree to opt out, but that was abused so they changed it.

 

[aircobra19]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

If this is correct, it surely applies both to employees and the self-employed. Yet the latter are free to work as long as they want while the former are prohibited from doing so. This doesn't make sense.

Why not?

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Should she be paid for overtime?

Why not?

Laws should, in general, apply equally to all workers.

If the WTA is so important to PAYE employees' welfare, why does it not apply to other workers.

 

[Purple]

You're only seeing one side, because its to your advantage.

No, what's your opinion of the working time act? Do you think it is right that our government legislates in this way? Do you accept that it restricts our right to free choice?

Its the same point you made. You can just move jobs if you don't like the hours. As if lifes that simple for everyone.

No it's not, I cannot choose to work more hours in most jobs because the government has taken that choice away from me. They have restricted my ability to make a living.

Holiday leave IS regulated aswell. Overtime isn't banned (AFAIK) its regulated and limited.

I was not aware of legislation that restricts the maximum amount of holidays that one can take. Can you post a link please?

Debating should the state act as mammy is a different topic than should we have opted in to the EU working act.

The working time act is the example of the state acting in a maternalistic way which is being discussed here.

AFAIK its not like Ireland drafted this. This is an EU directive that we agreed to.

Yes, but we didn't have to agree to it. That's the issue.

Employers and employees could agree to opt out, but that was abused so they changed it.

Really? Can you expand on that point please?

 

[MugsGame]

This thread was split from another. I did not post title.

No, that was me trying to be provocative!

 

[Purple]

No, that was me trying to be provocative!

 

[csirl]

Occupational health is the reason for the WTA. If employees worked too many hours over a long period of time without adequate rest, they will eventually have a breakdown or serious health issue. Then the taxpayer has to pick up the tap re: sick benefit, medical treatment, looking after dependents etc. WTA saves the taxpayers money.

If a firm has most of its employees on regular overtime, then why dont they just hire more staff? Could even be cheaper if employees get premium rates for overtime.

 

[Purple]

Occupational health is the reason for the WTA. If employees worked too many hours over a long period of time without adequate rest, they will eventually have a breakdown or serious health issue.

This can also happen if the employee stays up late at night watching TV. Should the state regulate what time PAYE workers should go to bed at? It seems self employed people are adults and don't need to be told how to run their lives so they are in the clear.

WTA saves the taxpayers money.

I do not share this view, it is not my experience. Can you back it up with facts?

If a firm has most of its employees on regular overtime, then why dont they just hire more staff? Could even be cheaper if employees get premium rates for overtime.

Labour flexibility is essential for any successful business. There are many reasons why overtime increases efficiencies and reduces unit costs but this is about the right of an adult in a free country to work when they want to work. There are many things that would make economic sense but are unacceptable in a free country.

 

[aircobra19]

No, what's your opinion of the working time act? Do you think it is right that our government legislates in this way? Do you accept that it restricts our right to free choice?

I don't have a problem with it. No because you have the choice to work in a job that has an exception from it.

http://citizensinformation.ie/categ...mployment_working_time_records?printpreview=1
[broken link removed]
http://www.emplaw.co.uk/researchfree-redirector.aspx?StartPage=data%2f98nov011.htm

I was not aware of legislation that restricts the maximum amount of holidays that one can take. Can you post a link please?

That makes no sense. Thats like saying is there a law that limits the number of hours I don't work in a day. There is a law for the minium amount of holidays.

The working time act is the example of the state acting in a maternalistic way which is being discussed here. ....Yes, but we didn't have to agree to it. That's the issue.

Overtime wa/is abused. Unless you conceed that, then it will never make sense to you.

Its bit like saying I can smoke and it does no one else any harm. So we didn't have to agree to smoking bans. Etc.

Really? Can you expand on that point please?

Mainly a UK issue. AFAIK. I don't know the current status of this.

Employers do not force workers to take holidays and breaks they are entitled to, so that staff could still in theory work 24 hours a day 365 days a year.

In the UK, employees can volunteer to work more than 48 hours a week, and so can work unlimited hours.

This "comprehensively undermines the intent of the directive", Amicus says.

Overtime hours for UK workers on night shifts are excluded from the overall 48-hour week count.

 

[aircobra19]

This can also happen if the employee stays up late at night watching TV. Should the state regulate what time PAYE workers should go to bed at? It seems self employed people are adults and don't need to be told how to run their lives so they are in the clear.

I assume its because self employed people are not employers.

Labour flexibility is essential for any successful business. There are many reasons why overtime increases efficiencies and reduces unit costs but this is about the right of an adult in a free country to work when they want to work. There are many things that would make economic sense but are unacceptable in a free country.

Uncontrolled working hours is now one of them.

Equally often overtime is the result of bad practices and is only feeding the symptoms and solving not the problem that required the overtime in the first place.