War On Terror

Catholicism

ELCid,

Before you go throwing stones at Islam, perhaps you should learn a little more about the sham that is catholicism. If you're catholic you believe that This post will be deleted if not edited immediately is the son of God. he is not. He is a real historical figure who was married to Mary Magdalene.
The Church has been fooling people into believing in this since the days of Constantine. Catholicism is merely an amalgamation between Paganism and the cult of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately.
 
Islam

Yes ElCid Christianity is a religion founded on the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and one of the ten commandments is Thou Shall not Kill, yet Christianity killed many more than any other religion did and still continues to kill.
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Thius is totally wrong again.
Christianity continues to kill? Where?
Muslims cannot understand the separation between religion and politics, simply because in their own world there is no division between them. America is not a Christian country! America is a secular Western country where a lot of people who call themselves Christian live...thats all. George Bush did not say he was invading Iraq to bring Christianity to that country!
Only Islam still believes in Holy War.

As for Muslim missionaries, why don't you read the other side of the story instead of gathering your facts from Christian media? Of course they will make their own stories so will Muslims. Islam wasn't accepted and was a threat to many empires and leaders of the tribes in the Arab peninsula, just like This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wasn't accepted by people of the time. You have to choice, get slaughtered or fight back? Do you also know that the rulers of Mecca tried to kill Muhammad and his followers many times, do you also know that they were chased all the way to kingdom of Ethiopia where Ethiopian king of time refused the hand them to Meccans after he heard about Holy Mother Mary from one of the Muhammad's followers from Koran?
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Muslim missionaries? I thought you told us earlier there were no such things as muslim missionaries...now you say there are. Make your mind up!
Islam does not use missionaries in the way Christianity does...Islam uses the sword to convert, I've already proven that. You now say that Islam 'had to fight back' because no one wanted to accept it. Is that the way of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately? Did he 'fight back' when the Romans came to take him from Gethsamane and crucify him?

If you think Islam was so cruel, how did so many churches and synagogue are still standing after hundreds of years?
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THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CHURCH>>>OF ANY RELIGION EXCEPT ISLAM>>>STANDING TODAY ANYWHERE IN SAUDI ARABIA.

To me it looks like west is creating more terrorists than there was before.
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There will always be terrorism as long as there is Islam because it is at the heart of its teachings to KILL all unbelievers.

And JC, before you criticise catholicism, you should cop on that the works of a few in the Catholic church has got nothing to do with the politics of America or Israel. I'm not here to defend the Catholic church, the issue is the global political order, not your local parish priest.
 
re America is not Christian

ELCid,

Perhaps you missed all those speeches where Bush said that God was "on our side"? He spoke to his troops with those words. He addressed the entire nation with those words. How much more open do you need him to be?

He is a deeply devout catholic. This is his war.
 
re

And JC, before you criticise catholicism, you should cop on that the works of a few in the Catholic church has got nothing to do with the politics of America or Israel. I'm not here to defend the Catholic church, the issue is the global political order, not your local parish priest.


I'm not talking about your local catholic priest. I'm talking about the whole basis upon which christianity is based upon.




There will always be terrorism as long as there is Islam because it is at the heart of its teachings to KILL all unbelievers.


There will always be terrorism as long as there is injustice and as long as America unswervingly backs Israel and colonises other countries.
 
Re:Comment

ElCid, are you very blind? It was Bush that used the word "crusade" to describe his anti-terror campaign www.uscrusade.com/usterror/180920014.htm back in 2001. Don't tell me it was a mistake, he is not a some street boy but he is the President of USA and he is Christian.
There is no such a thing Holy War unless you and likes of you doesn't stop using religions as an excuse to destroy each others, be Muslim, Jew or Christian.

When I said "As for Muslim missionaries" I was answering your post, I didn't say there were missionaries. There wasn't and there will not be, Islam doesn't send anyone to convert anyone like Christians did in America, Africa and Asia. If Islam was to convert everyone by use of sword then tell me how come majority of people in Greek, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia and other countries in Balkans as well as Armenia and other countries that have ruled are not Muslims? Surely if they were converting these people as you think they would have been Muslims today.

Why are you always basing Islam to Saudi Arabia? Is it because your were there? I understand that fact but if you hated that much what were you doing there? Were you a missionary? I know there are still a lot of Christian missionaries in Muslim countries and they are still trying to convert people. Islam is not only about Saudi Arabia, go to Turkey a secular state and tell me if those people are terrorists too because they are Muslims. Turkey attracts millions of foreign tourists whom are not Muslims. But by your logic if you go to Turkey you get killed because they are Muslim and they are out to get you.


There will always be terrorists as long as there are people like you that accuses over a billion of people for their believing and calls them cold blooded terrorists and ignores the fact that your fellow Christians drops all sorts of bombs on these people and you think that is right. Grow up.
 
Islam

JC, I watched a program about D-Day last night where they interviewed German as well as British soldiers who fought on the beaches. Both the German and British soldiers related how they prayed to God for help and victory.

Everybody thinks God is on their side.

As I said in an earlier post, when it comes to killing, God is on nobodies side.

Bush (just like Osama) may choose to invoke Gods name, but he is not Gods representative on earth, nor does he represent Christianity. Try to get your head around the difference.

Likewise AntiCid. Bush said he's on a crusade? Bush trips over his tongue every time he opens his mouth. If he is on a crusade, where is the worldwide support of the Christian churches and leaders for his actions? He does not represent Christianity. The Pope just berated him, to his face and in public for his behaviour.

I've yet to hear any muslim cleric berate Osama Bin Laden in public, to his face, for his Jihad against innocent western civilians. That won't happen, because as we can see from your comments, its OK to criticise the west for the mess in the ME because its all their fault and that means they deserve to die, and Islam is a religion that provides rewards in heaven for those who kill in its name. 72 Virgins isn't it? and rivers flowing with wine!

If Islam was to convert everyone by use of sword then tell me how come majority of people in Greek, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia and other countries in Balkans as well as Armenia and other countries that have ruled are not Muslims?
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Simple answer...they resisted. As I would if you tried to use a gun to convert me.

Sudan is currently being racked by a war led my their Islamic leaders against the Christian minority which they want to exterminate. The same is happening in the northern states of Nigeria.

Islam is not only about Saudi Arabia, go to Turkey a secular state and tell me if those people are terrorists too because they are Muslims. Turkey attracts millions of foreign tourists whom are not Muslims. But by your logic if you go to Turkey you get killed because they are Muslim and they are out to get you.
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The secularism of Turkey is under threat by the rising tide of Islamism.
Read this:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...402927.stm

As to visting Turkey, here's what the UK Foreign Office advice is:

There is a high threat from terrorism in Turkey. There have been a number of recent terrorist incidents, including bomb attacks in Istanbul on 15 and 20 November 2003, which caused a large number of deaths and casualties. We urge you to be vigilant in all parts of the country.

www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Fr...3618386532

Here's what happened to a bunch of western tourists visiting that other 'secular' Islamic country, Egypt:

Attack on tourists in Egypt leaves 71 dead. Shootings 'won't be the last,' militants say.
[broken link removed]
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Would I recommend visiting an Islamic country now?
Definitely not.
Would I go there myself?
Certainly not.

By the way, when I was in the ME it was because I was working and being paid for it, and when I took the post I (like most westerners) knew so little about what really goes on there. I know now. You couldn't pay me enough to even consider going back.

Lastly, I don't think its right for anyone, muslim or christian to drop bombs. As a wise man once said, you'll never persuade someone he's wrong by killing his children. Which is why Bush does not speak for me, any more than Bin Laden.
 
JC

There will always be terrorism as long as there is injustice....
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Are you endorsing terrorism as the solution to injustice then? Some people feel disgruntled whatever you do for them. Your cure for their sense of 'injustice' is terror?
Looks like this will be a long fight then, eh?

...and as long as America unswervingly backs Israel and colonises other countries.
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If America left Israel to the tender mercy of the Arabs there would be an immediate major war which would quickly end in nuclear conflagration of the whole region.

America tried to promote a peaceful solution. Yasser Arafat walked out of the talks over the single minor issue of who owns Jerusalem. The present conflict is the direct result.
 
Islam + Osama want Spain back!

History points finger at revenge for lost Moor kingdom
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 13/03/2004)


New forensic evidence on the bombings has raised an uncomfortable question for Spaniards. Is Osama bin Laden dreaming of exacting revenge for the loss of Al-Andalus, the ancient Moorish kingdom in Iberia?

A group close to bin Laden's al-Qa'eda network, the Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, sent a message to a London-based Arabic newspaper explaining the reasons for attacking Spain.

"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader and America's ally in its war against Islam," the statement said.

While the authentiticy of the message is open to doubt, there is no question that it reflects the thinking of Islamists, who hold that any land which has once been part of the Muslim community should forever remain under Muslim rule.

At the beginning of the 11th century, three quarters of Spain's population was Muslim but, as soon as the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella completed the reconquest of the country for Christianity, the Muslims were ordered out.

The humiliation has never been forgotten in the Arab world.

The sense of hurt has grown since Spain, for decades a friend of the Arab world, backed the US-led war on Iraq, despite vast domestic opposition.

A dozen al-Qa'eda-linked suspected terrorists have been arrested in Spain from among its burgeoning community from North Africa.

Bin Laden has identified Spain as a worthy target, and the "settling of old accounts" will send a tingle down many an old Spaniard's spine. Bin Laden gave warning that Spain would be singled out for attack in a taped message released last October through al-Jazeera, the Arab satellite channel.

He said Spain would be among six nations considered "special" targets for its role in the Iraq war. Bin Laden has also spoken of Al-Andalus, regarded with nostalgia by Islamists as the halcyon age of Muslim power and artistic achievement.

The tale of the "Moor's last sigh" is recounted to epitomise the loss of one of the Islamic world's great jewels.

When King Boabdil fled the city of Granada, the last bastion of Moorish rule, he looked back and wept. His mother chided him with words that have sent a painful message down through the ages to Muslims: "Do not weep like a woman for what you could not defend like a man."

Moorish armies from North Africa conquered the Iberian Peninsula in the 8th century and transformed the region into an integral part of the Muslim umma, or nation.

The year 1492, when Granada was ceded to Ferdinand and Isabella, is a talismanic date for some Islamist scholars who consider it as the beginning of the decline of the Muslim world which continues to this day.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...usy213.xml
 
Islam

Anti ElCid, could you please answer each of these 10 questions for me? I'm curious about these points.

1. Why are there no Churches allowed in Saudi Arabia?
2. Why are Bibles and Crucifixes banned in Saudi Arabia?
3. Why is there no Freedom of Religion in Saudi Arabia
4. Why is Christian proselytising banned in Islamic countries?
5. Why is conversion to other religions banned by Islam?
6. Why do muslims have no freedom to choose their faith, other than Islam?
7. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men by giving them 72 virgins, in a religion which punishes fornication?
8. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men with rivers of wine, in a religion which bans alcohol?
9. Why did the founder of Islam preach violence and war against non muslims?
10.Why is a muslim subject to punishment by death if he criticises Muhammed or the Koran?
 
Islamic Bigotry

While the Qur’an does say, "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256), many Qur’anic scholars insist that, in its context, this verse has nothing to do with not forcing non-Muslims to submit to the rule of Islam.

Many also teach that this "no compulsion" verse was abrogated (2:106) and replaced by the later and more numerous verses that say things like:
"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them." (9:73)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme." (8:39)
"Fight against such of those ... who ... do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)

In Muhammad’s day, conquered Jews and Christians who did not convert to Islam were allowed to live, provided they paid jizya, a "protection" tax. Pagans were only given the choice to convert or die.

This was the "peace" offered by 7th century Islam. To this day, in every country where Islamic law (Shari’a) is embraced, non-Muslims (and women) are treated as second-class citizens.

Freedom of religion is forbidden. For a Muslim to "apostatize" means, at the very least: severe harassment, or worse: imprisonment, torture and death.

Those are the facts.
 
To Beleiver

Beleiver I never said I am an expert on Islam nor muslims nor I am an expert on any other religion and I am by no means defending any religion here, that is beyond topic but ElCid and few others comes up to blame all to one thing which is Islam and accusing muslims to be terrorists including myself and few others in this thread of being some muslim fanatic travelers we have twisted the thread a little bit. I try answering from my knowledge and I am sure ElCid will help me with this one since he has been in Saudi Arabia ( Sorry ElCid I am assuming he as it is almost impossible to enter Saudi Arabia if you are a woman :D I know that much ;) )

1. Why are there no Churches allowed in Saudi Arabia?
It is banned by the government. Saudi Arabia is holy place just like Vatikan, do you think Pope will allow mosques in Vatikan?

2. Why are Bibles and Crucifixes banned in Saudi Arabia?
Same as above.

3. Why is there no Freedom of Religion in Saudi Arabia
Well I don't know that, i know they are not democracy.

4. Why is Christian proselytising banned in Islamic
countries?
It is not banned in Turkey, I was approached by missionaries while I was there right in front of a Blue Mosque of Istanbul and I had a nice chat with them, told them I don't beleive anything. I didn't see anyone stopping them nor doing anything. I can't speak for every country. It is best to go and see yourself instead of listening others.

5. Why is conversion to other religions banned by Islam?
Google or ElCid

6. Why do muslims have no freedom to choose their faith, other than Islam?

7. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men by giving them 72 virgins, in a religion which punishes fornication?
I beleive these are just made up stories to brain wash people. People are promissed a lot of things by god at the time of conflicts to fight for your cause.

8. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men with rivers of wine, in a religion which bans alcohol?
Same above.

9. Why did the founder of Islam preach violence and war against non muslims?
No, I don't think that is true, show me good link for that. They didn't enter the Jerusalem to kill all christiand and Jews, all were able to practice their religions as before unlike Crusaders whom slaughter anyone but the christians. Go to Jerusalem and you will see churches centuries old. If they were that cruel why didn't they burn them down? Just ask yourself.

Also bare in mind that you are talking about what happened 1300 year ago.

10.Why is a muslim subject to punishment by death if he criticises Muhammed or the Koran?
That is a fetva given by Iranian clerics I think (humeyni maybe?)

As Isabella put the facts in post above Freedom of religion is forbidden under Shari's but is this really any of our bussiness and what is it got to do with terrorism? This is how they live and we live different, we see them wrong and they see us wrong but that doesn't mean because they beleive different they are all terrorists, does it?
 
Islam

Freedom of religion is forbidden under Shari's but is this really any of our bussiness and what is it got to do with terrorism? This is how they live and we live different, we see them wrong and they see us wrong but that doesn't mean because they beleive different they are all terrorists, does it?
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I'd say its hypocritical of them to come to European countries and expect freedom here when they deny it to others in their own countries.

It certainly has everything to do with terrorism when we in the west are expected to allow mullahs like Abu Hamza come to our countries and preach hatred and murder in his mosque, in our land!

You say Saudi is holy like the vatican and thats why Christianity can't be allowed there?
Saudi Arabia is a huge country, much of it being vast empty desert!
The Vatican is a small piece of land in the centre of the city of Rome.

The city of Mecca might reasonably be compared to The Vatican, but to compare a whole country to a small few blocks in a major city...thats a bit much.

And anyhow, do you think religious symbols (like the Arab crescent) are banned in the Vatican? They are NOT.

While I was in Saudi, a friend of mine on our project threw down a couple of pieces of metal on the building site. 24 hours later he was sent home. The reason? They decided the two bits of metal looked like a CROSS and he had purposely 'insulted' Islam...so he was thrown out.
Same thing could happen in the vatican I suppose! Sure.

You would not get away with Christian proseletysing in Saudi, Iran, Afghanistan, Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar or any of those other Arabic countries. It is banned. Don't lie

72 virgins....I beleive these are just made up stories to brain wash people
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Well we agree on something! Islam brainwashes its believers!

Why did the founder of Islam preach violence and war against non muslims?
No, I don't think that is true, show me good link for that.
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There are plenty of such quotes in the Koran. Isabella just gave you a few. Here's more:

"Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

“God loves those who fight for His cause . . .”

“If you do not go to war, He will punish you sternly.”

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you.”

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers . . . Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.”

I suggest you follow your own advice and Google a few of the sites which quote the Koran. They're plentiful.
 
Atheist?

Hey Mr AntiElCid, for a self professed ATHEIST you sure get pretty worked up 'bout any good ole boy who criticises Islam!

You sure you ain't no Muslim boy?
 
re all the little boys having an argument

Hey guys,

You all give me the best laugh. Are any of you older than 6? Does your Mommy know you're on this website? :lol

Anyone with even a shrew size brain can see that the problems we see are coming from both sides. BOTH SIDES. The west is to blame for some of it. The Islamic fundamentalists are to blame for some of it too. Bush is about the worst possible president America could have at the worst possible time. Hopefully the democrats will do a better job with their foreign policy.

There were a few intelligent post on this topic on the first couple of pages. Now it's just really funny. I really love all those "Muslims are bad" posts.

Don't worry Brendan. When schools go back all these guys will disappear.

P.S...I'm a regular poster on this board with a registered username.
I don't notmally post on these kind of topics, but I watch what's going on in the world pretty closely. I didn't want to post under my own name because I saw what happened to piggy when he expressed his views. All the mad b**tards were out for his blood.

Nuff said.

Outta here.
 
Islam does not preach violence

msnbc.msn.com/id/3067495/

Naturally, the internet is full of alot of things. If I wanted to prove that the Bible taught people x, y and z then I'm sure I could find something on the internet to back up my own predujices.

Thankfully, I prefer to take a balanced view of life and other peoples.

Read up on what islam is really about and what most Muslims really think. Grow up boys.
 
This thread getting nowhere :D

ElCid, maybe you should start learn differences between The Islamic Fundamentals and Islam. Sorry you had a bad dose of Islam in Saudi but that gives you no right to think Islam is bad and accuse people of being terrorists because they are muslims and beleiving Islam. After all it was your choice to go to Saudi Arabia and you should have known what you were going into.

Did anyone tried to convert you by putting gun on your head? If you think all muslims beleive in fairy tales like virgins and wine in heaven why aren't they going around in Europe and converting people? After all this is what you are going on about. I have never receive a leaflet under my door about Islam nor anyone put a gun on me to convert. Ok we have a small population of muslims here but don't you think if that is what these people beleives and there is something like heaven and wines and dines at the end of it and they are brain washed by Koran, they would be going around doing as Koran tells them so? We don't see or hear that happening in Germany or France either with millions of muslims living in those countries. Try going to the restaurant in the mosque here food is great and no one will convert you :D

The Damned, I am not worked up on this, I have studied History and religions in the Uni and found a lot of conflicting stories coming from both sides.

Ok lets go back to topic, the War on terror, me thinks war on terror is causing more terror than preventing it.
 
Islam

Jamie the snake charmer (??) it is people like you that the fundamentalists in Islam love. You are prepared to give them equal standing (even a low one) with the christian democracies of the west. That just goes to confirm for them that we in the west are (like you) ambivalent, weak minded, dissolute and enfeebled. They believe it only takes a firm push to bring down the rotten structure of western civilization and replace it with a glorious Islamic Kaliphate encompassing the whole of humanity, and what better place to start than in the centre of modern western civilization...America.

Before you go back to your happy place and anonymity, let me recomend a book to you. It is called 'The Clash of Civilizations' and was written by Samuel P Huntington, (pen name ofAlbert J. Weatherhead) Professor and Chairman of the Harvard Academy of International and Area Studies. A man more learned and respected than even you my funny friend. His thesis was a best seller and although written in 1996 it predicted the conflict we are now seeing in the Islamic world. It also predicted a more dire future than we see even now.
Be warned, it isn't bedside reading, so don't strain your brain.

If you don't like the hard truth, just read something else. Others are going to do the dirty work anyhow to keep you free.

I went to the ME with an open mind on muslims, I came back with my eyes opened. I'm glad I saw it.

All muslims are not terrorists, but very many young muslim men seem drawn to Islamic terrorism as a way to relieve the sense of persecution that is inherent in the Islamic faith. It is a religion that encourages its believers to feel great injustice is always being done to them or their brothers, and to solve it by the gun.
Evidently every male above the age of 14 in Iraq owns a Kalashnikov.

We have a small population of muslims here right now, and at present they keep a generally low profile and are not perceived as a threat. However one only has to look at whats happening in the UK and France (AntiElCid must be blind to this stuff) to see the future for Ireland if the muslim population continues to grow. Over there they have massive problems with young male muslim delinquency and a growing alienation of a large part of their population.

It is written in the Koran that territory occupied by muslims becomes 'Darul Islam' meaning Islamic land given by God and must be defended to the death by all muslims (which is yet another reason why Israel will never find peace with the Arabs).

OBL's comments (reproduced above) that Spain was part of the Muslim Ummah (worldwide property of Islam) is indicative of their thinking. Certain cities or areas in the UK are now majority muslim and this means they are now Darul Islam - the land of Islam.

One can forsee the next step is the mass rejection of British rule in those areas, and then we have a situation somewhat like that in NI...a war of independance only by muslims wanting to separate from British rule. Supported and bolstered by the Jihadis of the Ummah.

It could eventually happen here. But even long before it does there will be hell to pay - as anti western sentiment continues to gain ground in muslim communities.

AntiElCid says no muslim ever tried 'converting' him. Does he need converting? I don't think so!
In the recent attacks in Khobar in Saudi the terrorists 'converted' a few westerners by the gun. They did the same again yesterday to an Irish cameraman (Simon Cumbers from Navan) and his journalist friend from the BBC.
In the first attack they went through the building searching for the westerners to execute. They spared the muslim residents of course. Cold blooded bastards.

I've made numerous references to the facts of what is written in the Koran, and AntiElCid knows they embarrass him and weaken his argument, so he defends them by saying they are just silly stories that aren't meant to be taken seriously.
By doing so he is defiling the Koran, and denying his religion. I've already pointed out that this is the worst sin a muslim can perpetrate and is severly punished. So AntiElCid you better be careful you don't reveal your apostasy to your brother muslims or you could be in serious trouble with them.

The Koran is taken by muslims to be the direct word of God, and it is not meant to be taken lightly. I've already said that those who call themselves Christian and yet defy the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ are not christians at all. The same goes for 'muslims' who deny the Koran...how could that person call himself a muslim? Other muslims would not!

If the Koran says KILL FOR ALLAHs SAKE and if you are a true muslim, then YOU MUST KILL.
 
AntiElCid

He dude, what university did you go to? Your grammar and spelling are like a 5 year olds! Did they kick your sorry butt outta there?

Hey man, answer me this. If Islam is so great, how come the countries you set up are all shitholes...like Afghanistan? C'mon man, what makes you think we all wanna live in mud huts and drink camel milk!

Mines a creamy Guinness thanks!
 
ELCid

ELCid,

You have some very strange views. Very misguided and prejudiced ones at that. Nonetheless they're your views. Thankfully, the majority of Western civilisation doesn't think like you. You sound as fundamentalist as Osama Bin Laden.
 
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