Traveller in Phil Hogan row was convicted of stealing cash

[DerKaiser]

Hi All. This could be a sticky one but nevertheless.....

A number of constituents of big Phil asked him to make representations to Kilkenny County Council on their behalf not to house a family in their neighbourhood because they fear there could be anti-social behaviour.

I have a number of questions:

1) Is it or is it not acceptable or even usual for a TD to make representations on behalf of their constituents?

2) Vincent Browne insistently repeated on his show that the family in question had no history of anti-social behaviour despite this being clearly incorrect. Does he need to come out and say he was wrong and it changes the entire context of his argument?

3) Do other posters believe it was wrong for the residents to approach Phil to make these representations? Would you be happy for someone with a number of criminal convistions to be socially housed in your neighbourhood? Has it happened anyone?

Many commentators automatically took this man's word (saying he'd never been involved in anti-social behaviour) over that of Phil Hogan. Why was that?

Is it because he's the nasty man who introduced the €100 household charge?

Is it because our comprehension of political correctness leads us to trust the word of an unknown person from a minority background over a known public figure? Does polictical correctness result in naivety on occasion?

 

[Ceist Beag]

IMO Phil Hogan has absolutely nothing to answer for here. What he did was to represent his constituents. He didn't attempt to influence the council in their decision, he simply passed on the concerns of his constituents as he is obliged to. The likes of Mary Lou and others having a go at him are either hypocrites or are failing their own constituents if they don't do the same thing in the same position.

 

[Firefly]

Were the representations to Phil Hogan by his constituents because the person in question was a Traveller or someone with a criminal record? If it was the latter, then surely the same constituents would have lobbied Phil Hogan for every other person with a criminal record looking for a house? If it was the former then it's a case of NIMBYism

 

[thedaras]

IMO Phil Hogan has absolutely nothing to answer for here. What he did was to represent his constituents. He didn't attempt to influence the council in their decision, he simply passed on the concerns of his constituents as he is obliged to. The likes of Mary Lou and others having a go at him are either hypocrites or are failing their own constituents if they don't do the same thing in the same position.

Couldn't agree with you more,I am shocked by the list of offences,after all the denials.
The locals usually know the score...
Wonder if the locals had any trouble from that particular house before,in that ,were there council tenants who lived there ,that they had no problems with?

Or did they have a lot of issues that may have caused them to be wary,and were there travellers or settled people living there in the past,with or without trouble for the locals?

 

[Purple]

The likes of Mary Lou and others having a go at him are either hypocrites or are failing their own constituents if they don't do the same thing in the same position.

It's not that long ago that people who Mary Lou's gang didn't like ended up getting buried on a beach. I have no interest in anything those vile people have to say.

 

[thedaras]

Plus 1 Purple

 

[Latrade]

Plenty of people are housed by local authorities who have criminal records and/or a record of anti-social behaviour and as a blinkered liberal I'd even go as far as to say that some of them might not even be from the travelling community. It's a shocking generalisation I know, and I can't provide any links to back up my claim, but I actually have the temerity to suggest that ordinary decent "domestic" Irish citzens can be criminals and gits to live next to too. The question is whether their prospect neighbours also lobby their TD to stop their housing too.

On a technicality, I'd also say that convictions for theft and operating a horse and cart while intoxicated don't mean you're a bad neighbour to live next too. You can still be a quiet neighbour while being a criminal, you only have to look to reports when some drug dealer or paramilitary individual is gunned down and the neighbours wax lyrical about what a nice and quiet chappie they really where and really nothing more than a loveable rogue.

And just to balance out the over-the-top liberalism with some over-the-top conservatism, I don't know if the area of Bonnettstown is a local authority housing area. If it is, then I'm sorry you live where the authority can put you up and your neighbours are whoever the authority says they are. If you are so concerned about who you live next to and their history, feel free to privately rent or buy somewhere.

However, if they authority where moving a criminal into a nice middle class area, then I can only wholeheartedly agree with his decision to intervene. Not only must we preserve respectability for these areas, but I doubt the new resident would take his bins in on time or help water the nice flower boxes we've put up on the road signs.

 

[DerKaiser]

Were the representations to Phil Hogan by his constituents because the person in question was a Traveller or someone with a criminal record? If it was the latter, then surely the same constituents would have lobbied Phil Hogan for every other person with a criminal record looking for a house? If it was the former then it's a classic case of NIMBY

Interesting point. If a known drug dealer was being housed in the area I'd expect a similar reaction.

The NIMBY concept always interests me as well. A lot of people seem to think it's OK to judge NIMBYs without ever fully thinking through how they would feel or even react if they were even in that position.

I'd like Fintan O' Toole or Vincent Browne (or anyone else portraying themselves as the conscience of the nation) to provide examples of their interactions with addicts, criminals, etc. Often you get someone who has dealt with anti social behaviours on a regular basis being lectured on political correctness by someone with no first hand experience.

 

[DerKaiser]

I don't know if the area of Bonnettstown is a local authority housing area. If it is, then I'm sorry you live where the authority can put you up and your neighbours are whoever the authority says they are. If you are so concerned about who you live next to and their history, feel free to privately rent or buy somewhere.

Just being stupid, but is this the OTT liberalism bit?

If so, what do you actually believe the rights of existing residents are?

(Just for info, it is a rural area with a number of farms adjacent)

 

[Purple]

Interesting point. If a known drug dealer was being housed in the area I'd expect a similar reaction.

The NIMBY concept always interests me as well. A lot of people seem to think it's OK to judge NIMBYs without ever fully thinking through how they would feel or even react if they were even in that position.

I'd like Fintan O' Toole or Vincent Browne (or anyone else portraying themselves as the conscience of the nation) to provide examples of their interactions with addicts, criminals, etc. Often you get someone who has dealt with anti social behaviours on a regular basis being lectured on political correctness by someone with no first hand experience.

Economic apartheid is just as effective as political apartheid. I find many people who become irate in these situations live in areas where there's no chance of travellers or immigrants being housed beside them.
I’m not sure how I feel about it. I wouldn’t like to live beside a traveller with a criminal record but I don’t like what’s happened here either.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Plenty of people are housed by local authorities who have criminal records and/or a record of anti-social behaviour and as a blinkered liberal I'd even go as far as to say that some of them might not even be from the travelling community. It's a shocking generalisation I know, and I can't provide any links to back up my claim, but I actually have the temerity to suggest that ordinary decent "domestic" Irish citzens can be criminals and gits to live next to too. The question is whether their prospect neighbours also lobby their TD to stop their housing too.

On a technicality, I'd also say that convictions for theft and operating a horse and cart while intoxicated don't mean you're a bad neighbour to live next too. You can still be a quiet neighbour while being a criminal, you only have to look to reports when some drug dealer or paramilitary individual is gunned down and the neighbours wax lyrical about what a nice and quiet chappie they really where and really nothing more than a loveable rogue.

And just to balance out the over-the-top liberalism with some over-the-top conservatism, I don't know if the area of Bonnettstown is a local authority housing area. If it is, then I'm sorry you live where the authority can put you up and your neighbours are whoever the authority says they are. If you are so concerned about who you live next to and their history, feel free to privately rent or buy somewhere.

However, if they authority where moving a criminal into a nice middle class area, then I can only wholeheartedly agree with his decision to intervene. Not only must we preserve respectability for these areas, but I doubt the new resident would take his bins in on time or help water the nice flower boxes we've put up on the road signs.

The thing is Latrade, the question here is was Phil Hogan wrong to pass on the concerns that were made to him. Your argument is more about the constituents themselves. As a TD Phil Hogan is obliged to pass on the concerns of his constituents, simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Had he gone further and tried to railroad the councils decision I would have a problem with that but to the best of my knowledge all he did was pass on those concerns, nothing more. So if people have a problem with this story imho it is more a problem with those raising the concerns, not the middle man who is simply doing his job.

 

[Delboy]

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2010/09/09/vincent-brownes-house-for-sale-through-irish-times/
Thats the house Vincent sold last year to pay for the debts on his latest failed publication. I doubt he had to worry about the council housing travellers or drug dealers etc near to him. So he can safely pontificate to the rest of us on the issue.
I find the people that most play the liberal card on issues like this have had little or no dealings with travellers.

Phil Hogan has nothing to answer for. The only issue I have with him is that he named the locals who approached him in the letter which was stupid.

The Carthy's got a free house by virtue of having 7 kids and him only aged 32 with no work related income. There's probably more kids to follow. The council also provided a field for his 2 horses and fenced it. How many more horses will be there in the next few years?
It was clear from the interview where he kept stressing how he 'never caused trouble in this area' that he most likely had caused some in other locations. I'm just surprised it took this long for the Indo to find out about the criminal convictions.

If we're all honest here, there's not 1 of us who would like this family moving in across the road from our own homes. I've had plenty of dealings with travellers having grown up in rural Ireland and worked in a family business....and 90%+ of the experiences have been negative

 

[Leo]

I've had plenty of dealings with traveller shaving grown up in rural Ireland...

Now, I know the space probably ended up in the wrong spot there...but 'traveller shaving' is prompting all manner of mental images here.

 

[Delboy]

Now, I know the space probably ended up in the wrong spot there...but 'traveller shaving' is prompting all manner of mental images here.

d'oh!!!!...fixed

 

[Latrade]

The thing is Latrade, the question here is was Phil Hogan wrong to pass on the concerns that were made to him. Your argument is more about the constituents themselves. As a TD Phil Hogan is obliged to pass on the concerns of his constituents, simple as that as far as I'm concerned. Had he gone further and tried to railroad the councils decision I would have a problem with that but to the best of my knowledge all he did was pass on those concerns, nothing more. So if people have a problem with this story imho it is more a problem with those raising the concerns, not the middle man who is simply doing his job.

Taking it to the irrelevant extremes of this, is a TD obliged to pass on concerns irrespective of the integrity and validity of those concerns? So for example (here comes the irrelevant bit) if residents complained against a black family being housed is a TD obliged to complain then? Apart from ex-FG Mayors in Kildare towns, I would suspect the answer is no.

Yes people have a right to express their concerns, no matter what they are to their TD, but a TD isn't under any obligation to act on them particuarly if they feel they aren't warranted concerns. If it was a knee-jerk reaction to appease constituants and wasn't based on an informed decision, i.e. is there actual evidence of anti-social behaviour and problems with the family being housed elsewhere? After all that was the complaint at hand, not the individual's criminal record.

The last point is whether or not the same attempted intervention or representation would have been made if someone with a similar criminal record except was not from the travelling community. It's hard to judge as we don't know whether he has, hasn't, would or wouldn't, so that side is pure speculation.

In my opinion a TD should not be trying to influence a local authority, except for planning decisions and only then if they've been paid off. Even if there is a history of anti social behaviour, in my opinion this is not an issue TDs should be getting involved in.

 

[thedaras]

(Just for info, it is a rural area with a number of farms adjacent)

Isn't there is a council area about two/three miles from there,called the Butts..and the Bonnetstown area rural with many bungalows/farms dotted along,all privately owned.

I wonder why they were not housed in the council houses,maybe there wasn't one big enough!Or perhaps the council had to facilitate their horses!

Many of us would like a bungalow in close proximity to KK city ,with lovely views and grounds for the horses.along with seven kids,and sure throw in a few convictions along the way,and get it all for free,,nice!
Where did I go wrong..

 

[Kkma]

Or perhaps the council had to facilitate their horses!

Many of us would like a bungalow in close proximity to KK city ,with lovely views and grounds for the horses.

Curious about this myself... if I acquire a horse or two and apply for social housing do I get a field too? I wonder what the rent would be?

 

[gillarosa]

Many commentators automatically took this man's word (saying he'd never been involved in anti-social behaviour) over that of Phil Hogan. Why was that?

Or it be because its been seen that Phil Hogan's word is not as good as the paper its written on? He wrote to some constituents advising them that the family would not be housed there, based on his supposition that Kilkenny CoCo would obey his request that this housing allocation would be blocked, not on any confirmation from the CoCo that this would take place, its falls somewhere between arrogance and stupididy, maybe both. Who would assume to take the word of a man who behaves in that manner, in my job I can't assume that my wishes will be carried out by another agency and on that basis circulate my sucess in achieving my aims.
Alos, in regard to housing 'anti social behaviour' would indicate the housed person engaging in behaviour that would be bothersome to their immediate neighbours, not that they have criminal charges or convictions for robbery or driving while under the influence elsewhere.

 

[oldnick]

Firefly made NIMBYism sound like a bad thing. What's wrong with it ?

Anyone declaring "sure, I'd much prefer that electric pylon, halting site, sewerage-plant in my back garden rather than in the next county" they should be a mental asylum ,which also I'd prefer not to be in my back yard.

 

[Leper]

Whatever happens here you will have the brigade that this should not happen in my area along with "concerned" mother hens rants that everybody deserves what everybody else has. Add in politicans creating situations to deflect peoples' mind from the state of the economy and payments of lump sums etc to those who should be in jail for years to come.

I have no problems with people of the travelling community being housed and if it is near my home OK, then let it be. I see the right of residents to protest also. There is a fear factor here.

We must also remember there are problems with some of the settled community. Whether we like it or not there is anti social behaviour from all groups. There was a commune of university students evicted from a house near me some years ago. They wrecked the place and upset the neighbours on an ongoing basis. No doubt, the students are now working professionals and probably in constant contact with the gardaí about kids playing football on their road.

Let's say somebody (anybody) is housed by the local authority. They behave like most good people, great and long may it last. However, anybody who is behaving in an ongoing genuine anti social way should be evicted and the eviction system should be open to acceleration and implemented. Dont ask me where the evictees should go, I dont know, but anybody who treats a house, street, apartment, housing estate, flat, duplex etc like it was a haven for asbos does not deserve to live there.

People must get a chance and if they fail they should leave. If they dont fail they deserve to be there.

Politicians will represent people whether we like it or not, it is the nature of the beast in Ireland and asking politicians not to represent is like asking our rivers not to flow.