"No jobs mantra suits the work-shy and welfare abuser"

[Mpsox]

A few weeks back I spent a number of days on the road and then in the UK for business. I stopped in a number of places for dinner and in a lot of cases, the staff (who were very nice and professional) were all non-nationals and in many cases, probably non-EU citizens. Same was at the airport when I made the mistake of getting a breakfast in their rip off canteen.
Walking around the town where I live, I can see signs in pub windows for lounge staff and the local Abrekabra always seem to have a poster in the window looking for staff. Why can't these employers fill their vacancies and are they forced to employ workers for overseas because Irish people wont work in these jobs?

To me there are 2 reasons, number one being that there is no financial incentive for people to take up a low paying basic job because of the way the system is structured. Why work 20 hours a week when you can get the same money doing nothing?. However, I also can't help wondering if a lot of people also believe such jobs are "beneath" them since we all got a bit carried away in the Celtic Tiger years.?

 

[orka]

Does Mr O'Byrnes believe that we should just sack the foreign nationals who hold the jobs in hotels, restaurants, corner shops etc and employ Irish people in those same jobs to solve the jobs crisis?

Also I am not sure why foreign nationals were brought into the article. They live here and they have jobs so what's the point?

A major point in the article, which I agree with, is that the government is spending money (reducing its tax take via VAT reduction, levying private pension funds etc.) to create jobs - and there is no point doing that if the jobs will not be taken up by people currently on benefits - the scheme may just attract more immigrants if they are the only ones willing to do the jobs. So we'll still have the same people on the dole but there will have been a cost to the state.

 

[Gekko]

If I lost my job tomorrow, I wouldn't grab the first opportunity in gardening that came along. I would spend time trying to find a job in the area that I am qualified in. Fair enough, I shouldn't be given an unlimited amount of time to do it but I should be given an opportunity without being punished. It doesn't make me work shy

Why?

If there's a gardening job available in the interim, you should be compelled to take it.

The problem is the disparity between the minimum wage and social welfare payments. If the minimum wage is €324 per week (€8.65 per hour x 37.5 hours), nobody should be getting total social welfare payments of more than (say) €200 per week. That'd soon put manners on the layabouts. And of course those who can't work should be looked after appropriately. This discussion is about those who refuse to work.

 

[Sunny]

A major point in the article, which I agree with, is that the government is spending money (reducing its tax take via VAT reduction, levying private pension funds etc.) to create jobs - and there is no point doing that if the jobs will not be taken up by people currently on benefits - the scheme may just attract more immigrants if they are the only ones willing to do the jobs. So we'll still have the same people on the dole but there will have been a cost to the state.

I somehow doubt immigrants are sitting in some foreign Country looking at the latest vacancies in Supermacs saying we must go there. Immigrants will come anyway and they are entitled to work just as much as anyone. If Irish people take all the jobs, we will just have a load of unemployed foreign national workers.

 

[orka]

I somehow doubt immigrants are sitting in some foreign Country looking at the latest vacancies in Supermacs saying we must go there.

No - but a lot will rely on anecdotal evidence from friends/family already here. If the message is 'you'll find a job no problem' vs. 'not so easy to get a job anymore', that will have an impact on the numbers coming here.

 

[Firefly]

Why?

If there's a gardening job available in the interim, you should be compelled to take it.

This is the point. You take something on a short term basis until you can get something better again. It's not like it's for an eternity. It's interesting to see that the 'usual' suspects against reducing benefits are those in the 'safest' of jobs. I can't help wonder why? Is it because they fear that they share the same employer and their own pay might suddenly seem so high?

 

[DB74]

If Irish people take all the jobs, we will just have a load of unemployed foreign national workers.

The difference being that we can refuse entry/permits to the 2,926 Brazilian workers (for example) that were issued PPSNs in the first 6 months of this year.

I would be hugely in favour of a graded social welfare system

 

[Complainer]

First of all, none of the things you mention are free in the UK, people pay for them through taxation and they pay heavily for them.

Correct, they are not free and they are paid for through taxation. I never mentioned the word 'free' in my post, so I'm not sure why you bring this up as a retort to my post?

Secondly, you have mentioned on numerous threads that there is no point in just looking at welfare rates while not taking cost of living into account, when comparing welfare entitlements in the UK and Ireland, and you are absolutely right. But I have pointed out on numerous occasions that JSA alone is 250% higher in Ireland than in the UK, and that at no stretch of the imagination is the cost of living 250% in Ireland than in the UK.

That's not the point I've been making. I've mentioned on numerous threads that there is no point in just looking at welfare rates while not taking the 'big picture' into account. Cost of living is just one feature of that 'big picture' - overall supports available from the State such as NHS and education is another part of that 'big picture'.

On the more general issue, I find it strange that it seems that we continue to issue and renew large numbers of work permits, given our current economic situation.

 

[DB74]

This is the point. You take something on a short term basis until you can get something better again. It's not like it's for an eternity. It's interesting to see that the 'usual' suspects against reducing benefits are those in the 'safest' of jobs. I can't help wonder why? Is it because they fear that they share the same employer and their own pay might suddenly seem so high?

Surely it's people in the not-so-safe jobs who are more in favour of retaining the current benefit system.

 

[Sunny]

The difference being that we can refuse entry/permits to the 2,926 Brazilian workers (for example) that were issued PPSNs in the first 6 months of this year.

But you can't limit the amount of Europeans. So we refuse entry to 2,926 Brazillians. Are you saying those 2,926 jobs should go to Irish people on the dole rather than Polish immigrants for example?

You are moving the discussion onto immigration policy.

 

[Firefly]

Surely it's people in the not-so-safe jobs who are more in favour of retaining the current benefit system.

That's what I would have thought too, but some of those in safe, government jobs appear to have the same viewpoint.

 

[Sunny]

My job is anything but safe and I think social welfare rates should be cut across the board including pensions and things like child benefit should be targeted rather than universal. I just don't agree that an article like this proves that Irish people are work shy and wasters just because they are on the dole and not working in meat processing factories.

 

[DB74]

But you can't limit the amount of Europeans. So we refuse entry to 2,926 Brazillians. Are you saying those 2,926 jobs should go to Irish people on the dole rather than Polish immigrants for example?

You are moving the discussion onto immigration policy.

Whatever way you look at it, we shouldn't really be issuing work permits to non-Europeans so that they take up jobs that people in the EU can do just as well.

Suppose there are 100 jobs available and there are 300 applicants, 100 from Ireland, 100 from EU, & 100 from outside the EU. You'd be mad to employ the people from outside the EU because then you have to pay social welfare to the other 200. At least you can send the 100 from outside the EU home.

 

[Sunny]

Whatever way you look at it, we shouldn't really be issuing work permits to non-Europeans so that they take up jobs that people in the EU can do just as well.

Suppose there are 100 jobs available and there are 300 applicants, 100 from Ireland, 100 from EU, & 100 from outside the EU. You'd be mad to employ the people from outside the EU because then you have to pay social welfare to the other 200. At least you can send the 100 from outside the EU home.

Where do you think all our junior doctors come from? Permits are not just issued to anyone. They are demand driven.

 

[DB74]

Where do you think all our junior doctors come from? Permits are not just issued to anyone. They are demand driven.

I'm not talking about high-skill level jobs like doctors. I'm talking about lower level jobs.

Are you claiming that there isn't one Irish person who could do even one of the jobs of the 2,926 Brazilians mentioned in the article?

 

[Sunny]

I'm not talking about high-skill level jobs like doctors. I'm talking about lower level jobs.

Are you claiming that there isn't one Irish person who could do even one of the jobs of the 2,926 Brazilians mentioned in the article?

I have no idea. I don't know what they do. I do know that your local fast food restaurant can't provide a work permit to a non-european for flipping burgers.

 

[DB74]

I have no idea. I don't know what they do. I do know that your local fast food restaurant can't provide a work permit to a non-european for flipping burgers.

I understand that.

I just find it hard to believe that we don't have suitably qualified European people to do jobs that these immigrants are coming in to do.

 

[Gekko]

things like child benefit should be targeted rather than universal

I heard Joan Burton make an interesting point in relation to this recently. Child benefit is paid to to everyone through the social welfare system to suit the less well off in society.

A single income family are generally entitled to a personal tax credit of €1,650 for the non working dependent spouse. The family should also be entitled to a similar level of credit for a dependent child. However, granting such a credit through the tax system wouldn't be of assistance to those without taxable income. As a result, everyone gets a cash payment of €140 per month or €1,680 annually through the social welfare system which more or less equates to a personal tax credit.

Joan's point was that in the interest of fairness, families would have to be granted tax credits for children in the event that they were denied child benefit and that this would make any change revenue neutral. And this is from a Labour Minister so it's not Margaret Thatcher-esque stuff.

 

[DB74]

Well then why don't they pay the child benefit gross as is and reduce the tax credits for everyone

That way those under the tax threshold will see no difference while those above it will effectively pay tax on the benefit

 

[Protocol]

We are a memner of the EU and we have signed up to free movement of people and workers.

So we can't take issue with thousands of Poles, etc. here. Also, they pay tax/PRSI and so are entitled to JSB like any Irish worker.

However, as I walk around Irish cities I can't get over the amount of non-EU workers here, while we have 300,000 unemployed.

Workers in shops, cafes, petrol stations, etc. all from outside the EU. We simply can't continue with this.

If we are to reduce unemployment from 300,000 then we can't allow anymore non-EU workers in.