"No jobs mantra suits the work-shy and welfare abuser"

[Brendan Burgess]

Excellent [broken link removed] by Stephen O'Byrnes in today's Irish Times.

OPINION : It’s time to reassess the unemployment crisis and the balance between work and welfare


JOAN BURTON’S recent comment that social welfare is a “lifestyle choice” for some people, and her warning that those refusing to take up training or employment opportunities could face welfare cuts, drew the predictable hostile response from predictable quarters. But little else. It was a brave stance for a Labour Party Minister, and one that challenges the prevailing national narrative about unemployment.
...

But is the jobs market really as grim and bleak as these headline figures suggest?
...
Is it not surprising there continue to be so many foreign nationals working in hotels, restaurants, high street stores, supermarkets, corner shops and garage forecourt outlets? I have nothing against these people (quite the contrary), but why are more and more of these jobs not now being appropriated by Irish nationals?


...But with the Government investing so much in reviving and expanding the retail and hospitality sectors, from raiding private sector pension funds to cutting VAT and reforming antiquated workplace regulations, it is important to ask if an expansion in the jobs market will lead to a reduction of tens of thousands on the Live Register, and a consequent reduction in the State’s social welfare bill, or simply an expansion in the number of overseas workers.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

It had occurred to me whether the unemployment rate was a fair reflection given that so many more non-nationals are working in Ireland compared to the 1980s.

I don't like the government's jobs initiatives and it is worrying that the new jobs created may well have no impact on the unemployment numbers if the jobs created are filled by immigrants.

 

[DB74]

Does Mr Byrne believe that we should just sack the foreign nationals who hold the jobs in hotels, restaurants, corner shops etc and employ Irish people in those same jobs to solve the jobs crisis?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi DB

Have a read of the entire article. I only extracted some of the Key Points.

Brendan

 

[jhegarty]

Does Mr Byrne believe that we should just sack the foreign nationals who hold the jobs in hotels, restaurants, corner shops etc and employ Irish people in those same jobs to solve the jobs crisis?

That suggests that Irish people would take those jobs.

I suggest that many people (I said many , not all) would not.

 

[JoeB]

The minimum wage is too high, I don't know why Fine Gael reversed the cuts. Surely wages that are too high are part of the problem. I think it was just a purely populist move by FG, not related to our economic situation, or to what is good for our country.
(If FG wanted to break election promises why not that one?)

Social welfare rates are too high.

I explained this to a guy who applied to me for a job, with no experience of cabinet making. I explained that I could employ experienced people at little more than the minimum wage.. mostly Polish lads it must be said, but from my point of view there's little difference.

So there is no lower wage available to pay him! He offered to work for free!, in order to gain experience which is essential to get a job in a hands-on cabinet making workshop.

 

[Gekko]

That suggests that Irish people would take those jobs.

I suggest that many people (I said many , not all) would not.

Which would be a lifestyle choice.

I'm no fan of Joan Burton, but her proposal to cut the dole of those who refuse to take jobs or to train was common sense.

There's a "pro waster" agenda in this country and the above article tackles it bravely.

It's simple. If someone on the dole turns down a job, their dole should be cut by (say) 33%. If they do it again, it should be cut by a further 33%. And if they do it again, they should lose the remaining payment.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

That suggests that Irish people would take those jobs.

I suggest that many people (I said many , not all) would not.

I think that is one of the main points of the article that we have become work-shy for the following reason:

Because when rent supplement and a medical card are taken into account, they are better off on the dole,

It's not just rent supplement, it's the Mortgage Interest Supplement as well.

If welfare rates were brought into line with Northern Ireland or the UK, a lot of Irish people would lose their work-shyness pretty sharply.

Brendan

 

[Complainer]

If welfare rates were brought into line with Northern Ireland or the UK, a lot of Irish people would lose their work-shyness pretty sharply.

Do you mean 'welfare rates' or 'welfare system'? If you're going to compare against UK or NI rates, then compare the cost of living in UK/NI, the supports available through the NHS, the free school books and (in some areas) free school meals etc. Please don't pick and choose which bits of the system you compare.

 

[Firefly]

If welfare rates were brought into line with Northern Ireland or the UK, a lot of Irish people would lose their work-shyness pretty sharply.
Brendan

+1 Brendan.

 

[Sunny]

How about we make Stephen redundant and offer him a job in a meat processing factory despite his qualifications and many years experience? Lets see how keen he is then to just forget about his career and take the first job offered.

Why are we spending a fortune on free third level education if we have loads of jobs that don't require qualifications? Why have we spent years telling people that further education is the answer if we are just going to stick them in lower paid manual jobs or else punish them by cutting their social welfare.

By all means cut the social welfare rates but don't judge people from your (not directed at anyone) ivory tower as to why they are reluctant to forget about their careers just so they can get a 'job'. If I lost my job tomorrow, I wouldn't grab the first opportunity in gardening that came along. I would spend time trying to find a job in the area that I am qualified in. Fair enough, I shouldn't be given an unlimited amount of time to do it but I should be given an opportunity without being punished. It doesn't make me work shy.

Also I am not sure why foreign nationals were brought into the article. They live here and they have jobs so what's the point? Would pointing out the number of vacancies in shops, restaurants, supermarkets etc not be a better argument to show how work shy the Irish are rather than pointing out how many foreigners seem to have jobs here. There are also a lot of foreign nationals on the dole.

 

[DerKaiser]

I'm not sure we have to brand people on the dole wasters in order to justify cutting the overall level of the dole with cuts focussed on those refusing to take jobs or places on training courses.

Most of the people on the dole now probably paid decent levels of tax for a number of years, so no point in insulting them. Is it not enough just to say we'll cut benefits without resorting to name calling?

 

[Chris]

I agree that both high minimum wage and high welfare entitlements are at the core of the problem, as they do not discourage people to remain on welfare. Why would a couple with two kids and rented accommodation give up net income of €30000 for one of them to take a minimum wage job paying less than €18000 a year? Germany faced this problem for many years and it wasn't until they capped unemployment entitlements at 12 months and introduced the so-called €1 jobs that unemployment declined. Incentivising people to do absolutely nothing is the totally wrong approach, which in my opinion is reflected in the amount of foreign workers in low paying jobs.

 

[shnaek]

Add to that the exemption from a property tax that will increase year on year. Dole income is tax free, so when you add tax on top of that, you need to be earning a very decent wage indeed to make it worth your while going to a job that you, perhaps, dislike.

Given the choice between working a job you dislike or earning slightly less to be free all day to do as you choose, the choice for an entitlement-based people is a simple one.

The difficulty is distinguishing between those who really want to work but can't, and those who have never wanted to work. Our society won't allow us to make those distinctions. We are simply not allowed to point the finger at anyone in a society that values equality no matter what the cost, over responsibility.

 

[JoeB]

There are two forms of social welfare... the one where your benefits are funded by the tax you yourself paid, and the other, that's available to everybody.

The 'available to everyone' one should be cut, and benefits should be issued in the form of vouchers. If we're giving people money for food and essentials then that's what they should be spending it on.

The 'funded by your tax' one should be updated. I wouldn't mind a system where someone is on 70% of wages for 6 months, then 45% for 6 months,.. then reduced to the standard rates.

There is a perception that our social welfare system is been abused. There are cases where people would be worse off having taken a 30K a year job,.. this is patently silly.. in Poland you'd take home approx 3,000 Euro for an entire year working in Tesco.

 

[shnaek]

Most of the people on the dole now probably paid decent levels of tax for a number of years

And that is why we should have a graded system, where those who paid decent levels of tax for a number of years get higher payments to start off with. And those who have never paid tax get lower payments.

 

[shnaek]

The 'available to everyone' one should be cut, and benefits should be issued in the form of vouchers. If we're giving people money for food and essentials then that's what they should be spending it on.

The 'funded by your tax' one should be updated. I wouldn't mind a system where someone is on 70% of wages for 6 months, then 45% for 6 months,.. then reduced to the standard rates.

Hear hear

 

[Chris]

Do you mean 'welfare rates' or 'welfare system'? If you're going to compare against UK or NI rates, then compare the cost of living in UK/NI, the supports available through the NHS, the free school books and (in some areas) free school meals etc. Please don't pick and choose which bits of the system you compare.

First of all, none of the things you mention are free in the UK, people pay for them through taxation and they pay heavily for them. Secondly, you have mentioned on numerous threads that there is no point in just looking at welfare rates while not taking cost of living into account, when comparing welfare entitlements in the UK and Ireland, and you are absolutely right. But I have pointed out on numerous occasions that JSA alone is 250% higher in Ireland than in the UK, and that at no stretch of the imagination is the cost of living 250% in Ireland than in the UK.

 

[Chris]

And that is why we should have a graded system, where those who paid decent levels of tax for a number of years get higher payments to start off with. And those who have never paid tax get lower payments.

The only way that this would work fairly and economically is if the whole system were to actually function like an insurance where the system becomes a funded one not a pay-as-you-go/ponzi one.

 

[Sunny]

And that is why we should have a graded system, where those who paid decent levels of tax for a number of years get higher payments to start off with. And those who have never paid tax get lower payments.

I know a French banker who was made redundant in London. Moved back to Paris and pulled in a six figure social welfare sum because of the graded system. Can you imagine the headlines here?